[00:00:00] Barry O’Kane : Hello, and welcome back to HappyPorch Radio, the Circular Economy Technology Podcast. I'm Barry, the founder of HappyPorch. We provide software engineering expertise for a more circular economy
[00:00:19] Tandi Tuakli: And my name is Tandi Tuakli and I've been working in fashion and technology for nearly 20 years. I help brands create circular business models that not only extend the life of their products, but also generate revenue and increase customer loyalty
[00:00:33] Barry O’Kane: As this season is all about rental Tandi, I was wondering what was the last thing you rented?
[00:00:39] Tandi Tuakli: The last thing I rented was clothing. I have a clothing subscription, so each month I get a box full of three to four new items, and this has significantly helped me with not buying more clothes 'cause I do have limited space. And also being able to keep my wardrobe a little bit more exciting and wear the clothes that I have more.
[00:01:01] Barry O’Kane: It's like the poster child for the benefits of rental there. I love that, and that's one of the things I'm really excited about for this season of the podcast is exploring what makes rental work where it doesn't work. The challenges and the opportunities in rental business models and to help kickstart the season we're joined by Danai Osmond.
Danai’s the founder of Refulfil, where he works with brands renting all consumer goods from electronics and apparel, sports equipment and more. Danai is one of those incredibly passionate and knowledgeable people about all things rental. He's one of the people I really enjoy nerding out about these things with, so it's with incredible honor that I get to introduce Danai.
[00:01:39] Danai Osmond: Hi, I'm Danai, founder of Refulfil, who are a commerce and operations consultancy for rental. So all we do is help consumer goods, rental businesses build profitable models, websites, and the operations that back those businesses.
My background: five years in the military, straight after school, as an army officer. I left after a really long tour in Cyprus, so we were deployed with the United Nations. I spent the best part of nine months away from home in a row without coming back to see my family so I came back and me and one of my best mates both decided to leave at the same time.
I went to Bloomberg as a data analyst for a bit, and he went to a startup called Oxwash who are still a laundry startup in the UK. At the time they had a site in Oxford, a site in Cambridge, a site in London. The big vision of the business was to be a net zero laundry in what is a really damaging industry.So after about three months of being at Bloomberg Will gave me a message and he said, look I'm having a great time here and we think we're gonna need to hire for someone to help us scale the operations a little bit. And would you have a chat with the founders, Tom and Kyle? So I went in to have a chat and ended up moving across from Bloomberg.
I really liked Oxwash’s mission to be the world's first net zero laundry and what is a really, really damaging industry. So they were solving a really big environmental problem. It had impact. That was something I was really after. And having had the chat with Tom and Kyle, I moved across to help them scale their operations from what was three sites at the time, London, Oxford, Cambridge and five days a week, eight hours a day to those same three sites 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
I led their Product team through seed and Series A. And also whilst I was there, took a bit of a personal responsibility for this new opportunity we saw in Fashion rental. So I joined Oxwash, which was co-located with the Hurr team, literally in the same warehouse.You had Hurr’s office at the back and a lot of Hurr stock sat around the Battersea laundry and then Oxwash’s office in the front.
So having done the operations for a couple of months there, I was very used to seeing Hurr stop moving around to dealing with it, talking to the girls every day. And we were doing a lot of throughput for Hurr, at the time, I think, must have been close to 10,000 pounds a month. But scaling very fast again.
We saw other identical rental businesses in the UK, fashion rental, but we also knew there was a wider opportunity outside just dresses. We knew immediately there were suits. We knew that brands were starting to get a little bit interested in rental. So we started to go out to different people and go, if we were to run a fulfillment center, not just doing the laundry, but maybe doing a little bit of the 3PL stuff as well, would you be interested? So I really set out on fashion by myself and I didn't really understand the opportunity in the industry at the time. It was still quite a new thing to me.
I know in hindsight, looking back now, that I gained a lot of experience that doesn't really exist. How many people in the world have worked in rental? Maybe now I know a little bit more about it. More than you think. The rental industry has really been around for the last 40 or 50 years, maybe just not in the way that we think.
[00:04:47] Barry O'Kane:I think that's a really interesting sort of point to pick up on- is the sort of timing of getting involved in that type of rental is like rental through the e-commerce sites rather than the sort of more traditional, where we think of rental as a wedding dress only or as a suit for a wedding or a car. And maybe that being it.
[00:05:03] Danai Osmond: And how many things have you maybe rented in the last 20 years and not really thought twice about it being rental. Okay. You would probably nine times outta 10 rent your suit for your wedding, some women may have rented their wedding dress, as you say. I have always rented skis every year when I go skiing, rent bikes, when I go to, down to the New Forest and I wanna go cycling for a day.
But also like furniture rental. There are some huge furniture rental businesses that existed for years. There are appliance subscription businesses, so you don't have to buy your washing machine or your fridge. If you're only gonna be somewhere for a year or two, you can subscribe to it or those are big financial purchases as well. Even if you know you're gonna have it for a long time, it might not make sense for you to buy it or to finance it.
Those businesses have existed for longer than I've been alive. And yet we think of this as a new concept. It's not, it's just that these things have always been done using either at best traditional ERPs but probably on pen and paper or a spreadsheet. Maybe with a physical store and maybe they've got a very basic placeholder website, but not renters in the way we're thinking about it these days. But I think it's important to remember that, while these businesses might not have had the tech, they've definitely solved the operational problems before. And they've won very profitable business models without the tech to support them. So there's lot to be learned from what they've already done.
[00:06:24] Tandi Tuakli: When you were at Oxwash, then you, sort of had this idea of reaching out to people with this offering of operations for rental was the idea then that Oxwash would then be a part of that as, for example, for the cleaning, and then you would be able to reach out to different service providers and offer, I guess a full array of what they would need, or were you thinking just to build it piece by piece based on what they needed?
[00:06:53] Danai Osmond: I think that the Team experimented with quite a few things.I think what probably happened is that we went out, so we had Hurr, we knew that Hurr were quite comfortable at this time doing their own warehousing, but were looking for a warehousing partner We went out to a few fashion rental businesses and they didn't want to be running their own rental operations, we realised very quickly that to expand the tour we were gonna have to offer the full package.
And when I say the full package, the loop from when it comes in the warehouse door to going round the laundry to coming back into the warehouse to being wrapped correctly. Because you gotta remember something like fashion rental, I've seen stock utility probably averaging about 20%.
When I say stock utility, like the time it's out with a customer versus inactive, either being washed or in the warehouse and sat doing nothing. So a lot of the stock at any one time is just sat stationary in the warehouse. And that's one of rental's real problems, as well as how do you maximise that utility whilst also keeping the availability to make sure that you're able to convert the customer when you hit their site. Because availability is probably the most important thing that goes into rental conversion.
So that full loop from going around the laundry coming back into the warehouse being racked up and then the pick pack and dispatch, the fulfillment out to the customer and then back in with the logistics partner into the warehouse again. So yeah, basically the full three 3PL operation plus laundry.
But what we found was there wasn't really a 3PL partner that could do everything for rental because they hadn't really experienced the kind of guarantee that an item was gonna come out, go out the door and then come back at the end of the rental and it be the same item. And there are all sorts of other problems like serialisation that I'm sure we'll talk about later as well.
But okay. There wasn't a partner apart from ACS and we knew a lot about ACS, none of us have been in their warehouse. And I've been very lucky whilst I was at Supercycle to have gone up, but to have seen it in person now, and it's an incredible facility. So we knew that ACS were doing the full package. We also knew that they were going one step further and they actually have their own suit rental company and a lot of the fulfillment that happens in their warehouse is for that suit rental company. And if you do get a chance to get the team from ACS, I'm sure they've got an awesome story to tell.
So yeah we knew we could actually go one step further. What if we had our own dress rental brand? Or what if we did something that could, because one of the real struggles we were having was where are we gonna get the scale that we need to operate a facility that can just focus on garments? It's, we kinda had our D2C, but we were considering some setting for that product and we'd already started down this road of fashion rental and it's really difficult to run a laundry facility that does both linen and fashion because the machines are entirely different.
When you're in a warehouse trying to make warehouse teams as efficient as possible, just having their minds in two different spaces, like the attention to detail that you need too. And not that you don't need attention to detail in linen, but it's a different kind, I think, to be understanding what fabric have I got in front of me? What kind of cycle does it need to go on? Why? How quickly does it need to be dry? Does it need to be hung to dry to make sure it keeps its shape? And then the finishing that goes in to garments as well.
We really needed a facility that was entirely focused on it and we couldn't get the volumes. And I think that's something that ACS have really excelled in is finding that volume themselves and then going out and being able to fulfill other people without the risks that they won't fill the facility.
[00:10:24] Barry O’Kane: That's really interesting too. Let's start at a quite a high level, can we talk a little bit about definitions? So rental models and some of the different terminologies and I'm thinking things like, subscription versus maybe a membership or calendar rentals or whatever terminologies we use. And just for a couple minutes, let's talk about, or from your point of view, Danai, how would you see different rental models breaking down?
[00:10:47] Danai Osmond: Yeah, sure. Definitely when I think of rental, the first thing I think about is the type of rental that is ski rental or suit rental. And I think I've only really heard that called two things so far. And that's event rental or calendar rental. And that's rental between two set dates. So I'm gonna go to a wedding this weekend. I need a suit. I know the wedding's on the Saturday, so I'm gonna borrow it from the Thursday to the Monday. With that model you have the core set of dates. You also then, if it's not being collected from the store, from a physical store, you also have to pad out those dates.
[00:11:25] Barry O’Kane: So that's calendar or event rental. What other types have you seen or do you, would you define?
[00:11:28] Danai Osmond: Yeah and then on top of calendar rental, we've got subscription rental and membership rental. And I hear actually here subscription rental to use to describe both quite a lot. And sometimes just have to clarify with clients and with merchants which one they're actually talking about. And membership rental's a really interesting one. I would call membership rental the rent-the -runway model. Which is that I'm gonna pay, I don't even know what their pricing is these days, but I'm gonna pay a hundred dollars a month. And for those hundred dollars, I'm gonna have access to three garments at any time. And I can mix and I can swap those garments whenever I want.
I think Nully are running a similar model now. But I think it's much more of a box and you get your box and you send your entire box back, and then you get your new box. So there's already, even with that model, a couple of different ways to skin the cat.
Also, I've seen a couple of merchants looking at kind of membership models where it's not really that box model, but it's more of a, I'm gonna pay and Hurr do a model like this called Hurr Flex, where I'm gonna pay X amount per month. That's great for Hurr and for other companies that are doing this because they've managed to turn that one-off revenue into recurring revenue and I'm gonna get a set of credits and I can use that over a period.
So Hurr essentially adds the credit from the amount that you're paying is your subscription plus an amount of extra credit into a pot that you can use for your rentals at any time. I've seen other merchants do models where you can say pay $50 a month and you get access to rent three dresses, but they don't all have to be taken at the same time. You could have, you've got three events at different points in the month. So you rent one dress in at one point and then two dresses at another point. So that's maybe on the boundary between all three membership, kind of subscription kind of calendar and Yeah.
And then we've got subscription. And I think I would call subscription, what we might have called leasing in the past. Or long term hire, that kind of thing. But where it might have been reserved for cars and really big purchases in the past and maybe appliances at the lower end. we're now seeing it for stuff like furniture, for mobile phones, for sport equipment.
There's a great business out here called Your Reformer who make reformer beds for reformer pilates. They work with Supercycle. If you get them on at all, so they sell them they're a retailer and they make their own beds, but they also have a rental reformer that's made of metal instead of wood.Lasts a lot longer with stand a lot more. Little more heavy use and I forget how much it is but it works out really reasonable. It's a great way, I've already met a couple of people just talking about Your Reformer as they're trying to explain where rental is going.
Oh yeah, I actually did rent from them. I was thinking about buying one of their reformers, but didn't want to put up two, three grand up front. Reformer pilates was something new to me. It's something I thought I was gonna get into, but I wanted to know that I was going to commit before I put that much money into a machine. I had the same thing with a treadmill. I rented a treadmill for a while. I actually decided that I wasn't gonna buy a treadmill because I didn't use a treadmill at home enough. But I was curious to know if I would, and I think that's what a lot of people do use subscription rental for.
There's another business that Barry, you and I have both worked with Baboodle who rent prams and cots and smart sleepers, that kind of thing. It's the baby equipment at the higher end. They can be easily like two grand plus which is a huge amount of money to spend, especially when some of these are maybe only useful for six months to a year in a single configuration. You might have a null to three month configuration and a six month configuration, a 12 month one. You might then have another baby and need a double pram, and then your single pram’s completely useless. So definitely in a stage of your life that is so rapidly evolving and so uncertain a subscription model makes total sense.
[00:15:22] Tandi Tuakli: I was just gonna ask, do you think it's more the customer or the product that determines, for example, if you're gonna do a lease versus subscription or any of the other models you mentioned?
[00:15:34] Danai Osmond:. I think with all things business, it's always driven by the customer. Even in rental, I can think of some things that could be rented as a consumer on event rental or on subscription. So really good example is furniture rental.
First thing I did when I'd just moved to Australia, and I'm probably only out there for a year. So when I moved into an unfurnished flat and I was looking for furniture and I was kinda struggling with Facebook marketplace for a couple of bits and really particular about my desk. My clients are there listening, l know, really have a problem with hollow desks. I don't like the echo. So I wasn't willing to go down to IKEA and pick up a cheap desk and wanted something a bit more solid. So I looked for furniture rentals out in Sydney.
Turns out there are seven furniture rentals just in one city. But they're split across a mix. So some of them focus on staging homes for open houses, just for photography for selling homes or for maybe a Build-to-let block and they've just staged out one flat to take photos of it. Or for events and that kinda stuff. Or for people like me who wanted something a little bit more long term 'cause they were just in a flat that they know is not gonna be there forever home and they want to kit it out a little bit, which that's one example.
Also in kind of mobile phones and tablets and devices, you can, you get in B2B, in the B2B space. You can get device rental, especially for conferences and stuff like that. Just short term event rental. But you can also rent stuff long term on subscription, the same things, but you'd never get it from the same company. It would be a completely different business model. Yeah I'd say these businesses, they're solving real problems for real customers. And what they're renting is just dependent on that customer. But I think what the problem they're really solving for the customer that determines the model they're offering.
[00:17:23] Barry O’Kane: One of the other things I'm really interested in exploring is how we decide or how we identify the problems and the challenges and the places where maybe rental doesn't work. Any of these models maybe doesn't fit. Before recording, we were just talking about some examples of businesses that have either moved away from rental or perhaps even, closed down and stopped operating. What were the kinds of things you would point out Danai, that maybe encourage or facilitate or incentivise a rental business versus those that where you're pushing against the headwind if you're trying to create rental within that area?
[00:17:53] Danai Osmond: Good question. And unfortunately, even at Oxwash, we're in a bit of an industrial state that was full of really forward-thinking businesses. And we were co-located with Hurr, later next door to Hurr. And there were a couple of other businesses on the estate that did that, did similar things. We had the (inaudible) who were doing rental, but they were doing handbags and fashion and things like that for resale.
Also above us was the Little Loop and Charlotte, obviously is still running, a really good business, but they've pivoted their business model slightly now. And I think one of the struggles that they've probably faced and again, get them on, because Charlotte has a really awesome story to tell too. But one of the problems I know they face 'cause Charlotte's written about it, is the market was just far bigger for resale and what they were doing than rental.And I think quite often rental even now, as we were saying, rental's been around for 40, 50 years. So if now is not the time, will it ever be?
I think it will. I think that the market is evolving very quickly. Even in the time that I've been in the market, when I first left Oxwash, I actually, I decided not to go off on myself with Refulfil first 'cause I really felt that I wouldn't be able to go out and find the merchants that I felt last year that I could. And in that it was only a year gap. I really saw how much the market came along.
But definitely there are a lot of rental businesses working uphill to create a market for themselves. To convince consumers that renting the thing that they're thinking of buying is a clever thing to do. It's a cost effective thing to do, and it's a safe thing to do and that kind of safety and trust comes into to rental conversion a lot.
So back to your question what makes rental a viable business model and one that customers are gonna adopt? I think usually people are renting because it's convenient, because it makes sense financially. Because maybe there's a big financial burden of getting the thing that they really want.
So with subscription rental for example, they probably really want that really nice pram for their newborn. But at that time in their lives, spending that much money in a lump sum probably isn't the best idea. Similarly with a dress. Why wouldn't you buy the 300, some of the dresses on Hurr are in excess of thousands of pounds, right? Why don't you deserve to wear that? But is it really a clever financial decision to be buying to wear once?
So it has to make sense financially, but it also, as I said, the consumer has to feel safe. And I think that's something that the brands can solve. If I'm renting something for an event, I need to know that it's gonna come on time, it's gonna come in good condition. That it's gonna fit me. These are all problems that retail can just solve by, Fast and free postage by allowing people free returns and just allowing people to order like three different sizes for the same item and different styles as well with different fits.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons why a consumer wouldn't rent at the moment 'cause it's in a lot of industries, such a new concept and that is a struggle for a lot of rental brands. But definitely there are some no-brainers. The industry that Baboodle operates in. I think dress rental makes a lot of sense. Equipment sports equipment rental, even the things that we've always been used to renting like bikes and like skis, but also your home sports equipment off the back of Covid as well. And even we saw Peloton last year introduced, that's on subscription, yeah.
[00:21:22]Tandi Tuakli: I also was curious what you think, like in an ideal world, you were saying that besides convenience seems to be a really big thing in order to get people to maybe participate more in rental models. Are there any other factors that you would say in an ideal world if they would be in place, then perhaps more people would rent?
[00:21:41] Danai Osmond: I think the real struggle at the moment is discoverability, there are very few ways for rental brands to acquire a customer that they're creating a market for themselves, right? And there is an amount that you can do with influencer marketing, with social media marketing for discoverability. There's only so much you can do in the search space if people aren't searching for what you're offering, then there are very few ways to rank there. There are a couple of things you can do with location based search and stuff like that, but it is really an uphill battle.
So I think one of the things that we really tried to do when I was at Supercycle was get brands involved in rental. And I know that's something they're still very focused on because brands already have the eyeballs. Like they already have the consumer on their website, so it's very easy to convince that consumer, especially if the channel is brand-owned to, to rent that thing for much less than they could buy it for, but you can understand the concern from brands that it might cannibalise the sales.
I have views on that. I don't think it actually would, I think they're selling to a different market. I think they're selling a different value of item to the same person if it is the same person. It’s a pretty big investment, both from a tech perspective, but also in, in setting aside the stock to be rented, especially if you are not renting on demand like a lot of rental businesses are actually doing now, but you are actually saying this is a bunch of stock that I'm gonna segregate from the rest of my warehouse and it is now rental stock.
What if one of those items never rents at all? Because a lot of these brands, they don't have a 3PL that can run rental for them. The ones that have done it so far, or if they are running their own warehouses, they just don't have the capability or the operational wants to complicate their warehouse. A lot of the brands that have tried it so far are segregated a bunch of their stock and sending it off to a partner to manage for them. And that's a real risk and it's very hard to convince a brand to do that.
[00:23:35] Barry O’Kane: Something there that I think is really interesting is you mentioned like questions like we don't know if it'll rent or, maybe we'll set aside or we'll invest in this, the stock and the process in the operations, but we don't know what will rent. I think that touches on one of the other things that's changing a lot quickly in the last couple years is people.
A lot of the folks doing rental, this type of rental at the moment are basically inventing the process as well as working out where they fit into it. Like they're creating a market, perhaps they're working out, how do we do it, and then how do we fit into it and is it profitable for us, does it work? But then as this sort of the leaders in that start to do it.
As you said, people like in Oxwash and ACS proving the operational stuff can work if you do it right. The startups that are working out, okay, here's the tech stack and the processes, here's the data I have that will allow me to make decisions about what products and stuff. Am I right in saying that we're slowly starting to build up a sort of body of evidence within the whole economy in different sectors of places where, okay, there's a little bit less risk to jump in and do it here.?
[00:24:34] Danai Osmond: Yeah, definitely there are already industries within rental that we know are profitable. We've seen it done before. There is a good operational model set out for it and you can almost just copy and paste the businesses. But I also think there are businesses that we haven't seen be profitable yet, or maybe there's only one or two examples within the industry but there is real opportunity as we become more operationally efficient, but also efficient with the stock that we're buying when we're buying it. And I think if we focus on the warehouse, for example, so many rental warehouses at the moment are being run almost manually either by very rudimentary software or off spreadsheets or worst case pen and paper. Some of the oldest rental merchants, those ones that have been furniture rentals have been around 20, 30 years.
They're, a lot of them are running off very simple processes and yet they're profitable. So what does that say? Maybe tech isn't the solution to everything, but I think in an age where we're talking about dark warehouses and dark fulfillment centers in retail, I think it's crazy that in an industry that is operating off such small margins compared to retail that we're not trying to automate everything possible, but it's understandable why. There just isn't the scale that it makes sense yet.
When we were at Oxwash we didn't have automated racks for the kinds that you see from ACS and from Rent the Runway. Because it didn't make sense. We just weren't doing the volume. And actually, if you go up to ACS and you go across to Rent the Runway and you can see photos of Rent the Runway's warehouse over in New Jersey, and a lot of it is just metal racking. It is not automated at all. Bunch of it is as well. And the same as the case up at ACS. And I'm sure if you ask them, they'll probably say, actually a lot of it isn't as efficient as we hoped it be. 'cause it's just not having the throughput that we expected.
But otherwise why isn't it all? And I think that's one of the real challenges is you're already operating on such a small margin compared to retail and then you also don't have the economies of scale, the retail has to be able to start as you say, making your operations more slick. So there's a problem in that space. I think in retail we talk about profitability and revenue interchangeably but in rental it's a completely different ball game.
And in retail you sell more and you make more. But in rental, it's all about maximising the utility of your inventory. That's the time that it spends outta your warehouse compared to in your warehouse.. Just losing money and also making it last as long as possible. I think up until now most rental software vendors have been, or to be honest even now, I see the vast majority of 'em focusing on providing tech that is physically necessary to rent. Like how do we actually allow a customer to rent something on a website and tell the merchant that it needs dispatching and give them basic data around when it's due out and when it's due back in.
But no one's really focusing on the data problem. Like in retail, we've been focused for the past five, 10 years. And it's in that data that you find those extra margins that maybe make this model profitable. With more advanced data that's really accurate enough that you can make intelligent decisions on what to buy, both from a demand perspective, like buying at the right time, the right color, the right sizes that when someone visits your site to rent something they're not presented with an out of stock for the dates that they want. And also from a longevity perspective.
[00:28:05] Tandi Tuakli: We could also maybe talk about it from the angle of if it works maybe better in certain markets or with a certain type of customer, if you have any views on that as far as if rental works better for example, in the UK or in urban environments, things like that?
[00:28:23] Danai Osmond: Yeah. I think models definitely work in different places. I think rental from what I've seen so far, tends to work better in urban - like highly populated, dense cities. One of the reasons is logistics. If you are in a dense city, you can rely on last mile logistics to get things out to customers, which solves part of the trust problem, if you can guarantee that if something goes wrong, you can fix the problem within 20 minutes and not the next day or potentially the day after.
I know people who have rented addresses, have rented all sorts for the first time. They've just tried rental for the first time and their first experience has been a bad one. And that is someone who is never doing anything except buying again. So you can really solve the kind of repeat customer problem with Last Mile Logistics, I think that people in urban areas are a lot more likely to come across some of the problems that are being solved by rental - things like regularly changing your house, co-living potentially being on slightly tighter budgets because your income to rent ratio is probably a lot lower. A lot of what rental has to offer is convenience. You can need something and have it almost immediately and only for the time that you need it and not have to store it in your probably smaller apartment or house.
So rental from what I've seen so far, definitely works a lot better in cities. But that's not to say that it doesn't happen outside of cities as well. And of course, all the fashion rentals we see in the UK have national footprints. You can get almost anything rental, couriered. Even some of the larger things like furniture, like Pelotons bike they'll deliver straight to your door and some of those might impose what they'll call, like joining fees or whatever. What it really is an initial delivery fee and a, and something to cover the return as well and the setup. Maybe it's a little bit harder to make sense from a unit economics point of view but it definitely still happens on a national scale.
[00:30:23] Barry O’Kane: Outstanding. Thanks so much Danai. This is an awesome conversation and luckily we're gonna have you back in this season later on, we can continue this conversation and also dig a little bit more into what the work you're currently doing with Refulfil and some examples of clients and some projects we've even done together. So that'll be a fun conversation.
[00:30:40] Danai Osmond: Brilliant.
[00:30:41] Barry O’Kane: And just finally, for those listening, if and who want to learn a little bit more about what you do or reach out to you, where should they go?
[00:30:48] Danai Osmond: Yeah, absolutely. They can find me on LinkedIn, Danai Osmond. But also next month we're actually launching a Rental newsletter. A bit of a kind of industry summary. It's gonna be called Access Over Ownership. Again, links on my LinkedIn profile. Please go and give it a follow, completely free. Nothing salesy in there at all, but I really believe that the rental industry is successful through collaboration and stories, shared stories of success. It's really gonna be about telling, stories about different merchant strategies, about how different merchants have been successful, really trying to help people learn from one another in the industry.
[00:31:28] Barry O’Kane: I'm really excited about that. Brilliant. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks again for coming and joining us and we'll definitely be speaking again in another episode soon.
[00:31:36] Danai Osmond: Thank you Barry, and thank you Tandi, both for having me.
[00:31:40] Outro: This podcast is brought to you by happyporch.com. Whether you need bespoke software development, fractional CTO support, or just expert advice, HappyPorch is here to support your circular economy initiatives. If you're driving innovation and circularity, we'd love to chat. Your hosts were Barry O’Kane and Tandi Tuakli. Barry is a software engineer, leader, and entrepreneur with over 20 years experience. He founded HappyPorch to help you create web and software solutions that support the shift to regenerative circular economy. Tandi is a circular expert with over 15 years working in the fashion industry. She's passionate about collaborating with brands to create circular programs that reduce waste, drive revenue, and strengthen customer loyalty.