[00:00:08] Barry O'Kane: Welcome back to HappyPorch Radio, the Circular Economy Technology Podcast, where together with leading experts, thinkers, and doers, we explore the intersection of technology and the circular economy. 

I'm Barry, the founder of HappyPorch, where we provide software engineering expertise for a more circular economy.

[00:00:25] Tandi Tuakli: And my name is Tandi. I've been working in fashion and technology for nearly 20 years. I help brands create circular business models that get additional revenue from existing products while reducing environmental impact.

[00:00:38]  Jo Weston: And my name is Jo. I help purpose-driven and circular businesses turn their vision into a brand and strategy that moves people to act.

[00:00:47] Barry O'Kane: This season is an exploration of all things rental and so far we've spoken to some of the technology providers. We've spoken to some of the fascinating rental first business founders and we've even had a conversation about the academia point of view. 

So in this episode, we're stopping for a little mid-season reflection, but where are we with circularity? What's the context we're in right now as we have these conversations?

[00:01:07] Jo Weston: Yeah, I just realized that when we started recording these episodes, I think it was back in the spring of course, we had the Circularity Gap Report that was published which actually showed that this year global circularity actually decreased and fell to 6.9%. That means that 6.9% of products and materials are being reused, whether that's recycled or repurposed. But obviously that's a very small percentage. It was, I think 8.3% or something like that. So yeah, we see a decrease in that. 

And yeah, at the same time, I think, there's also been some work around putting the Circular Economy Act into practice and some measures around Product-as-a-Service and looking at measures around extending producer responsibility for what they actually put out there into the world and how they work with that, which fits quite nicely with some of the companies that we've spoken to.

[00:02:15] Barry O'Kane: Yeah, I think it's really interesting reflecting on the Circularity Gap Report and how the number's actually going down and yet there's a general increasing awareness, or maybe it's the bubble we're in, I don’t know, but increasing awareness of circularity and the various potential benefits and the reasons both from a financial and business point of view, but obviously from a planetary and social and environmental point of view as well. And yet the reality is that the big changes aren't yet happening. 

[00:02:39] Jo Weston: I guess it depends how that relates to the levels of production and consumption. So whilst the awareness may have risen slightly, and of course it's hard to put figures on those things, the levels in production of goods and consumption of goods has probably surpassed the awareness levels. But yeah, I don't have any statistics to get a  handle on that, but I can imagine that's moving faster than the awareness and the change in people's daily behaviors.

[00:03:12] Tandi Tuakli: Yeah, and I think a couple people, thinking about Danai and specifically Katie from Baboodle touched upon the fact that even though there are a lot more businesses focusing, we were talking about rental, so I'll skew this towards rental, but even though there are more businesses making more products available through rental, the struggle is still the systems, right? The partners that they need to build the ecosystem to really make this not only a more convenient option for customers, but also a profitable option for businesses to scale these operations and not just have them as set side projects. 

And to your point, Jo, I think it's right that production over-consumption plays a big role in that. But I think also the fact that a lot of businesses that are trying to address that are struggling to be able to find the partners that they need to really scale up and make their services available to more people in more places feel like they just don't have what they need, the support that they need, or in some places they don't have the technology maybe also in terms of systems to be able to offer as much of a service as they would like.

[00:04:20] Jo Weston: Yeah, and of course it's got to make, to be realistic about it, financial business sense as well. So you know, for example, finding the right supplier. If that's gonna drive up the cost significantly, then that's gonna be a barrier to being able to be truly circular as a business. 

[00:04:39] Barry O'Kane: On the plus side, one of the positive things from some of these conversations during the season has been the growth in the number of there suppliers and being available. So we've spoken to some of the technology platforms that help with parts of that circular journey. And so although it's still very nascent, I think I'm seeing more people trying to actively create that ecosystem. So it's to help join the dots. Now that doesn't yet mean everything's nailed. Because we also talk in a lot of the conversations about how,  you mentioned Katie from Baboodle, who was talking very much about having the challenges of implementing the technology that she needs in order to be efficient and that's not an easy process at all. There's nothing completely off the shelf yet. But those things are coming and there's pieces of the jigsaw being filled. 

There's a real strong inspiration I always take from the Scottish Rewilding Movement, who I think do a really good job of selling a vision of the future rather than focusing on the negative. And I think that's an important big picture thing to be aware of. 

[00:05:32] Jo Weston: And I think shifting to more of a long-term thinking perspective -  that came out when we were talking to Black Winch -  the need to shift away from like, basically just selling a product or a unit, but actually to more long term, as in what happens to that? What's the legacy of that?

I think we live in a world where it can become all very quick and short term. But circularity is definitely a long term vision.

[00:06:01]  Barry O'Kane: So let's reflect a little bit on the episodes we've had so far. We started the season with a conversation with Danai whose company is called Refulfil. And one of the things that I really enjoy speaking to Danai because he’s such a fun person to geek out with, specifically on rental and the details of it and the operational stuff.

[00:06:18] Jo Weston: So what do they do exactly, Danai?

[00:06:20] Barry O'Kane: So Danai’s business Refulfil, they basically specialize in working with rental businesses. A lot of what they do is helping with the Shopify builds for a rental business to actually help with the customer interaction. But also Danai’s background is working in rental businesses, so in operations, so he has a very good and detailed understanding of operations in the warehouse: physically things moving around and how to handle returns and trying to get clear processes and structures around that. And then building the tools and the technology to enable it.

[00:06:50]  Tandi Tuakli: Yeah, I think with Danai one thing that I really took away from that he mentioned that he just happened, when he was working at Oxwash, to be sitting near Hurr Rental and realized that there was similar challenges between the Oxwash model of trying to get clothing back to be washed and then get it back to the customer. You also have a similar sort of lifecycle with rental. They're trying to get a product back, have it cleaned, and how important it is for the business to be able to have a quick turnaround. And that there weren't a lot of companies familiar with that from the logistics side which is making obviously, for example, for rental difficult to scale.

And then of course you have the further challenge of having the technology that speaks between the customer, the business and the logistics partner to make this all possible. And so I think what Danai really highlighted there is the importance of the logistics because it really is just an issue of getting this one product back and forth to customers and getting it quality checked and cleaned as quickly as possible.

And that for the business is the most important part. And then obviously for the customer, the most important part is to get that item quickly, especially when you're talking about fashion rental and you maybe have an event. He really, I think, highlighted how important it is for the success of a rental business to be somewhere where there's an existing system that makes that possible, and how tech is then the enabler that connects that into this little circle to make it all possible.

[00:08:23]  Barry O'Kane: And the other part of the conversation that we covered with Danai was an introduction to the season and us thinking about different rental models. 

As you're saying, there's event rental, which is maybe going back to what you were saying at the start, Jo, it's maybe something that is more clearly, more well known or more widespread.

I hire a suit for a wedding or a dress for a wedding or equipment for my skiing holiday or whatever. There's a specific time period when I need this equipment so I can rent it rather than own it. 

But then we also touched on, you know, subscription rental models and membership rental and different ways of structuring it and how that maybe applies to different products in different places. And I think that was an important theme because that keeps coming back up in different conversations as we go through the season. 

I guess that the devil's in the details, so to speak, that there's actually quite a lot of difference in the details between these things, sometimes, even though at a conceptual level, it's literally just a product going out, being used for a while, and then coming back, being cleaned, repaired, and then getting out again as quickly as possible.

[00:09:18] Jo Weston: Yeah, and every sort of different type of product has a different life cycle, we've spoken about washing machines and we've spoken about clothes and bike rental and it's very difficult to apply a sort of, one size fits all.

[00:09:33] Barry O'Kane: In the next episode, we spoke to Leah Pollen. 

And on a slightly different angle, I'm talking about the leasing of devices, electronic devices and particularly in phones. What really sticks in my mind as one of the key takeaways from that conversation is the context of saying that circularity does not magically equal all these other benefits, sort of material reuse and waste and tackling our planned obsolescence and all of these problems that we hope that circularity can solve. 

It doesn't automatically mean that because, for example, leasing phones is motivated or largely motivated by trying to encourage people to upgrade to the next device. But yet at the same time she was very much talking about how it is a step towards that big term vision and it ties back to other parts, other conversations we had where although circularity isn't automatically equaling those things, it significantly helps and like it increases the chances of those things aligning and the incentives aligning towards more genuine circularity.

[00:10:29] Tandi Tuakli: I think to your point when we were discussing, for example, why more iPhones are resold versus Android phones, I think what I took away from that is also this idea that then there's an incentive for maybe Android manufacturers to follow what is already working for Apple in this case, which is to make more durable products which will have a higher value for resale, even though Apple's intention was not necessarily to make their products more circular or have them be reused by more customers, the fact that they've been able to design them to increase the resale value is something that other businesses can look at as inspiration and as proof for how they might invest more, because I think that is a challenge for a lot of businesses to invest more in the product design and manufacture of a product in order to make it possible for that product to be resold multiple times and also to have a high enough value in the resell market to make it worthwhile. I think Leah highlighted this, to make it worth their while, that after leasing the phones there is a market for them to be resold.

[00:11:37] Barry O'Kane: And tying that back into rental, it seems like one of those really obvious things, but it's a recurring theme during all these conversations is how the right model for the right product is really relevant. You can't have a sustainable business renting a low quality  product, because the product just doesn't last enough or it costs too much to maintain. And so there is a sweet spot where the right rental business model can work. And then there's other places where it's a much harder challenge. And that's even setting aside the pushing against the headwinds of what is seen as a sort of mainstream understanding of, I guess, the public view of what rental means and what ownership looks like.

[00:12:12] Tandi Tuakli: Yeah, and I think Yann touched upon that where he said, I'm paraphrasing here, but basically that when you think about rental, that's where you have a product that's being used for short time periods, but it's going out very often, whereas with Product-as-a-Service, that product is maybe gonna go through less owners but maybe gonna be kept for a longer period of time. And you probably have to think about which category your product falls in in order to make that decision and to have your business model then be more successful.

[00:12:43] Jo Weston: Yeah, and I think he was also touching on the idea of not so much looking at it from a product perspective, but a service perspective. You are developing a service, not just selling a product or a unit. Yeah, which ties in I think with the lifetime customer value discussion as well.

[00:13:03] Barry O'Kane: That also ties in with what in the next episode, we spoke to Lucy Wishart, who's a lecturer of circular economy at Edinburgh University. Because she was talking about, although it was a wide ranging, fun conversation, but one of the things that really stood out for me there was the concept of consumer work, which ties directly to the service part.

So if we're saying we're making the consumer do a lot of work, then it's obviously gonna be a harder sell or harder product thing. So if we can take some of that consumer work away -  In rental, that means, for example, having the thing delivered on time in the right place in a friendly way that doesn't need to be assembled, and then helping me get rid of it afterwards so that there's this sort of seamless journey and the communication around that. Or at least that's where my brain went when she started talking about consumer work.

[00:13:45] Jo Weston: Yeah, we talked a lot about how to make rental more successful. And I think she also had some interesting ideas around how to engage a community and the different levels in which you could do that. So we talked about having physical hubs within locations, for example, in libraries or where there would be a place that you could go to, but also having robust technology that can support that.

But also potentially what you just mentioned, Barry, to have things delivered to people's homes for people that actually can't get to a specific physical location. But really getting a community rallied around the idea of rental to take it to the next level. And you often see that change happens with a small group of people.

So I do believe that that is possible, that grassroots change that then takes it to the next stage.

[00:14:41] Tandi Tuakli: What I thought was really interesting about that discussion was the idea of bundling services. Jo, you just touched upon this thing about the community. And that actually, I think somehow in the discussion there was a talk about furniture rental. And also if you get something from Ikea, then you also need tools to put that together.

And this idea of if you really want it to be more convenient and as she said, reduce that consumption work, you should think about not just one rental service, but all the things that person might need within that community.

So if they're putting together furniture, do they also need to rent tools? Do they need to rent, I don't know, a truck to pick it up? And that if by bundling those services and making it even more convenient for people they're even more likely then to choose rental over purchasing.

[00:15:28]  Jo Weston: It could be actually quite interesting, couldn't it, to gather together partners to do that. So because often I think it is then considered a burden for a company to do that all themselves, but actually if you could work with the person, different partners can actually enable that service.

I think one of the big barriers is the complexities around all of these things. And yeah it’s hard enough to integrate within your own business without working with others to offer additional services. But I think that's a nice vision for the future.

[00:16:03] Barry O'Kane: And that's a nice sort of step towards actually the next conversation we had, which was with Ryan Atkins from Supercycle. So Supercycle is a Shopify app, enabling you to bring rental and other circular business models to the Shopify ecosystem. And one of the things that I always like about what Ryan talks about is saying Shopify is like the leader in e-commerce platforms. It has a huge platform with a huge amount of work that goes into creating this incredibly powerful tool. 

And so by taking his team specialism and really building in circularity, it's allowing some of that complexity to move out of the rental business as we're talking about here, or the circular business. To be able to say, I have this huge platform, maybe I am selling and now I can also offer rental, or I could also offer resale or anything, within the Shopify platform. And having that as a first class citizen instead of going, “Oh, it's this extra patch on top of this extra difficult thing.”

[00:16:56] Tandi Tuakli: Yeah, we were just talking about making things easier for a consumer in terms of behavior change, but in a way a business is also a customer. And when you're trying to get them to change the way that they do things from linear to circular, it also needs to be more convenient.

And I think that's where Ryan was really talking about: meet people where they are. If someone's already using Shopify, how can you make it so much easier for them to then implement these different kinds of business models in a way that doesn't need a new team or new technology, some kind of new integration. But how can you make that sort of a seamless process for customers, but also for businesses?

[00:17:33] Barry O'Kane: And that ties back to something we were saying earlier about the ecosystem and again, Jo, what you were saying about the partnering aspect. So being able to say, Okay I want to set up a rental business, or I want to add rental as a model to my existing business, and there is no easy plug and play, Okay just go and do that, and then start focusing on your branding and your positioning and your product. 

You also then have to think, Okay, now we have a whole different touch points with our users, not just at the point of sale, but also we need then to communicate with them as they own it and have it coming back. Nevermind the physical movement of that thing. And then when it comes back into our warehouse, now we need it checked and cleaned and washed and all of those things. 

Ryan articulates really well being able to say here's the piece of that difficult problem that we can solve that his business can solve. And then what they're doing is partnering with others to say okay, we can integrate with this logistics provider, this 3PL or whichever one you're using, or we can work with this other platform to allow you to customize your warehousing or anything like that. 

And to me, I think that is an example of the way that we can start to solve some of these really big complex system problems of having everything working together by starting to build the building blocks, but having them friendly and talk to each other and integrate with each other in a way that maybe allows more business to say, Oh, there is an opportunity for me here. And a way to tackle those difficulties of making it easy to use for the person, the renter in this case.

[00:18:54] Jo Weston: I think if you can build on trusted technologies that people are familiar with, like Shopify. That really helps I think, because I always think that it's better to join up some of the off the shelf things rather than keep trying to reinvent the wheel. 

So it's nice if you can build something based on what's already known and trusted for sure.

[00:19:15] Barry O'Kane: And from the technology point of view, the other story that Ryan tells really well that I always like in very broad strokes, incredibly simplifying things. If your business is something like, I need to spend 30% of capital on the technology just to enable my business, and then 30% on the product and 30% on marketing and sales, and that leaves a tiny margin at the top then that's a really difficult business to run. 

But if you can then say here's the existing tools and that reduces my 30% developing cost, my R&D costs are now down to, 5 or 10% because their platforms exist, now that business starts to look a little bit more viable. They can put a little bit more energy into the things that they're good at: their products and their positioning and their marketing and the relationships with their users and their customers.

[00:19:55] Tandi Tuakli: I think reducing that friction as you said is part of, I guess Ryan's mission. I think one thing that was really good about that conversation with Ryan was that he wasn't necessarily trying to get businesses to do any one model. But he's really saying that here are the opportunities and here's the technology and let's see how we can make this work for you. To your point, Barry, like how can we reduce the costs to make this actually like a profitable part of your business? And also looking at the customer experience to make sure that customers will actually engage and use these new services.

[00:20:30] Barry O'Kane: And in the next episode, we've mentioned him a few times already, we spoke to Yann from Black Winch, who are specialist advisors and consultancy for Product-as-a-Service business models.

We've mentioned that a couple of times now, and I think that's really interesting because to me, although we're focusing on rental broadly in this season, it's not like it's one thing and one thing only. Rental or circularity is one thing, one thing only. It's this complex ecosystem of all these different options and things we could do. And rental is some of those. But then also Product-as-a-Service in my mind, it feels like a natural extension of the rental thing saying Here's a product when you need it, but Okay, here's the product and a service, or here's just the output of that product, so you don't need the product and you're paying for just the output and things like that.

It's an incredibly powerful alignment of incentives, which I get really excited about, and I think Yann did a really good job of presenting and explaining that in a very concrete, realistic way.

[00:21:22] Jo Weston: Yeah, and obviously he has his own podcast as well, so he was very well practiced at that. And I think that also fits back into the Circular Economy Act and the measures that they're looking to develop in terms of product as a service. But just in terms of the way people are behaving now, that experience is very important.

People want the experience. They don't just want a product, they want the experience that comes with it. 

I think it's very sensible for businesses to look at it from a service perspective, not just from a product perspective. And whether that service is rental or taking back a product at the end of its life cycle or repair or whatever it is, they're all elements of a service.

And it would be nice to see more companies offering different elements of the service, which relates back to circularity. Not just repair, but yeah the whole full suite of services

[00:22:21] Barry O'Kane: Yeah, agreed. And there was two things from Yann's conversation, which I really liked.

One was when he was talking about within a business and you're trying to introduce an as-a-service offering or model to an existing business and how crucial it was that everybody's engaged in that, and it's not just a little add-on or a plug at the side. And that won't really work because it's such a subtle but powerful mindset shift from, Okay, we're trying to sell these things to Okay, we're trying to get a recurring income from this service. And that affects all aspects of the business. I thought he articulated that really well.

And then the second thing, which obviously is very close to my heart is the technology aspect and how not overinvesting before you've really learned exactly what you need is really important.

[00:23:05] Jo Weston: He's done a lot of work with customers to find out exactly what's required before actually building it. And I think it's always a fatal error to build technology without really understanding what you're building it for, and for who you're building it.

[00:23:18] Barry O'Kane: So moving on then the next one was a really fun conversation. Again, somebody we've mentioned a few times already, and that was Katie from Baboodle. What stood out from that one for you?

[00:23:26] Tandi Tuakli: I think one of the first things in this discussion we were just having now, about not building before you know what you need to build, I think Katie definitely had this in mind when she's talked about, basically identifying this need, a personal need, which she had, which was basically feeling like she needed to buy lots of expensive baby equipment, whether that was strollers, car seats for her kids and knowing that she's only going to use them for a short amount of time and then she needs to buy a bigger one or a different one. 

And I think her approach of just basically creating a very simple, I think it was a PDF that she created, and basically just starting the business that way to prove that there was a need and it wasn't just something that was personal to her, but that there was this community of people who also felt like, Okay I know that I only need these products for a short time, how can I save money? And also be sure that I'm not creating waste.  I think she also identified the fact that you need to put a lot of effort into reselling those products, knowing that you're only using them for a short time and that kind of becomes its own part-time job to sell your children's things. 

And so I thought that was great how she just said, it just proved this concept. 

And she also talked about it from the logistics perspective, that before they even started investing in their technology for their business, they were just using an Excel spreadsheet to document the steps and what needed to be done with what products, where they were, the locations and so forth. So I thought that was really smart and I thought that was really great for other entrepreneurs that might be looking to enter the space to see that you don't need to invest a lot of money and infrastructure to get started. And just prove your concept. And also she got the rewards of knowing that what she was building was already related to her business processes and her customers. And without having to think back and make a lot of changes after the fact. So I thought that her approach was really great and that also she knew her customer really well.

And that I think is something that we've heard a couple times, particularly with Product-as-a-Service is knowing who your customer is, what do they want to use your product for, and for how long. And so she had a really great understanding of that. And also she got a lot of great feedback, I think from her sort of slow approach.

But then once she implemented her technology, now she's really looking at scaling her service quite quickly because she's done all that groundwork.

[00:25:48] Barry O'Kane: The other thing I really like about Katie's story is the only word I can think of is graft. She's literally there with her own baby. Not literally there with her own baby, but she has her own kids and she's in the warehouse daily, putting things in boxes and answering messages and making sure that the cleaning process is operating efficiently and so on.

And as you say, with any entrepreneur or any sort of a business person there is that's a challenging and also an incredibly rewarding process to be going through. So to then also have the problems of, okay, there isn't a tool I can use to do this thing that I want to do. I have to either go and build it or whatever can feel, like it almost feels counterproductive to be going, Okay, I need to adapt, have tools that can adapt and tweak and grow with me. It feels messy almost, rather than, wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to just go and build this magic tool and then start using it, three months later or whatever. 

But the ideal journey never happens because what you build is never exactly what you need until what you both just said, until you've really learned and understood, and allowing the tools to adapt as you grow.

[00:26:44] Jo Weston: Came out in the discussion with Lucy as well, this concept of accepting that it's gonna be messy.

Because if you think you're gonna have a fully polished circular model that works from day one, think again. So you have to have that kind of long-term vision that Yann talks about in order to go on that messy journey.

And just make the improvements along the way. But knowing that, it's not gonna be in any way, shape or form perfect.

[00:27:14] Barry O'Kane: In our most recent episode with Patrick who also has his own podcast, Circularity.fm, we had some of the same themes coming up again. Patrick is really articulate and has a good story and his own experiences of Product-as-a-Service and what you need in order to make that successful. But that same theme was one of the things he mentioned is the don't over-engineer and to use existing tools as much as possible. And then using APIs, you know, and help them work together. 

What else stood out for you with the conversation with Patrick?

[00:27:43] Tandi Tuakli: I think the main takeaway for me from that conversation was really, he said above all Product-as-a-Service is a service. We've also touched upon this a couple times now and that it needs to be above all a pleasant experience for the customer. And whatever the product is that you're renting, however it is that you wanna execute this, you need to, at all times be thinking about what is it like for the customer. Designing it around their needs, their wants and above all, making sure that you put the customer first and the Product-as-a-Service when you're thinking about how to make it successful.

Because all the other things fall into place when you understand the needs of the customer. And also how, I think we were just talking about this with Yann within the company, when you're trying to go to different teams and explain what you're doing if your focus is on making the customer happy, everybody understands that.

[00:28:34] Jo Weston: Yeah, and I think it's one of the kind of pitfalls sometimes of circular businesses or circular missions, should we say, very much can be focused on what you think is right and what you think is the way forward as a business without considering what the customer wants and how to take the customer along with you on the journey.

Yeah, I think, looking at things from outside in instead of just from inside out, your perspective is a crucial thing that often, sometimes it can become too idealistic without really bearing in mind what the customer needs are.

[00:29:14] Barry O'Kane: We've had a sort of whistle stop tour of what was actually seven long and fascinating and very varied conversations. Hopefully we've given a little bit of a taste or a flavour. For those pleased to go back and listen to them, everything's on happyporchradio.com or search for HappyPorch Radio on your favorite podcast app. 

Just finally, Jo, Tandi, having taken part in these conversations and being part of the podcast, how does it feel for you? Have things changed? Has it been enjoyable? What's your overall sort of reflection?

[00:29:40] Jo Weston: I think it's been great to talk to so many different people and see what their approach is to rental because again, and we didn't touch on this at the start of the conversation, but this kind of definition around what is rental is also a little bit blurry. I think how it connects to reuse and resale and the complexities around that is and has been quite a fascinating thing to learn more about. And also have a different perspective on how that fits with the ladder model for circularity, because rental is probably one of the lesser known elements of circularity, if you were to walk out and ask somebody on the street.

[00:30:27] Tandi Tuakli: I would say initially coming into this, I think my sort of mindset was I was looking to find sort of commonalities, especially in terms of the technology. I was, I think subconsciously looking for some sort of clear magic bullet where you can say, Oh, this is the solution. This is how all circular rental business models should be executed or this is the technology that can make it happen. 

And I think to Jo's earlier point is that it's gonna be messy. And I think everyone mentioned that there is no one clear strategy, clear process especially when you're talking across different products and different kinds of customers and that you really need to embrace that in a way this kind of I want to say not unclear, but you might have a goal in place, but the way to get there is not necessarily straightforward. It's not a copy paste. 

For example, just because another company in your industry has set up a rental business in a certain way, it doesn't necessarily mean that same technology, that same process is for your company and your customer. People need to embrace that as part of the journey of going through this is that you are gonna go through maybe different iterations. You are gonna have to experiment. I think that was something across everyone that we spoke to is that there is a little bit of trial and error involved and that's okay at the same time. 

And that part of having this ecosystem is also learning from different partners about, you might not have all the knowledge to make that circular model successful within your company, but that there are partners available that can give you pieces of that puzzle to help you along with that journey.

[00:32:07] Jo Weston: Yeah, and it should be a rewarding and hopefully profitable journey as well. I think it's for a business ultimately. But yeah, I think you have to embrace the messiness and see it as a fun process of discovery and improvement rather than a pain in the neck. That kind of mental shift, mindset shift, I think within a company is really important. And I think one thing that was clear is that the people that we spoke to, they themselves have a clear role in providing that leadership within their company, within their industry to actually take others along with them.

So it really starts with them inspiring others through podcasts like this, but also through their individual businesses and the people within those businesses and the customers that come in contact with them.

[00:32:58] Barry O'Kane: Wonderful, an excellent place to finish our mid-season reflection. I'm really looking forward to the second half of the season. 

Thanks again both of you for joining me!

[00:33:06] Tandi Tuakli: Yeah, it's been great! 

[00:33:08] Jo Weston: Thanks Barry!

[00:33:10] Barry O'Kane: : Thanks for listening.

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[00:33:26] Outro: This podcast is brought to you by happyporch.com. Whether you need bespoke software development, fractional CTO support, or just expert advice, HappyPorch is here to support your circular economy initiatives. If you're driving innovation and circularity, we'd love to chat. 

Your hosts were Barry O’Kane, Jo Weston and Tandi Tuakli.

Barry is a software engineer, leader, and entrepreneur with over 20 years experience. He founded HappyPorch to help you create web and software solutions that support the shift to regenerative circular economy. 

 Jo helps purpose driven and circular businesses turn their vision into a brand and story that moves people to act. She works with teams at tipping points ready to scale or reposition for greater impact.

Tandi is a circular expert with over 15 years working in the fashion industry. She's passionate about collaborating with brands to create circular programs that reduce waste, drive revenue, and strengthen customer loyalty.