[00:00:08] Barry O'Kane: Welcome back to HappyPorch Radio, the Circular Economy Technology Podcast, where together with leading experts, thinkers and doers, we explore the intersection of technology and the circular economy. 

I'm Barry, the founder of HappyPorch, where we provide software engineering expertise for a more circular economy.

[00:00:26] Tandi Tuakli: And my name is Tandi. I've been working in fashion and technology for nearly 20 years. I help brands create circular business models that generate additional revenue from existing products while reducing their environmental impact. 

In this episode we are joined by Büsra Zanner, founder of Wearr, a new premium fashion rental service based in Germany and serving all of Europe. 

What was something interesting that you took away from today's discussion with Büsra, Barry?

[00:00:57] Barry O'Kane: I really like that Büsra's background is in technology and she's taken this crazy leap into a startup in a whole different sector and fashion rental. Obviously she's really knowledgeable and passionate about fashion herself, but to take what she's doing is bringing her wealth of experience in a very different sector, and applying it to fashion rental. 

She talked very eloquently about the strengths and challenges of that and about how she's bringing her background in technology and applying it usefully, but also needing to learn a huge amount as well. 

What about you?

[00:01:28] Tandi Tuakli: I thought her clarity was really admirable. Not only about who she's trying to serve but also what kind of service she's trying to provide. And I thought it was great how honest she was about how there are sometimes some trade-offs, when you have this really clear focus.

And sometimes, those trade-offs mean, you know, spending more money or maybe not being as sustainable or circular as you may want to be. And I thought that kind of honesty was really refreshing in this discussion.

[00:01:59] Barry O'Kane: Yes. Yes, I agree. And the fact that you need to make those compromises and those tough decisions in order to maybe get to the point, we can reach those lofty aims, and the company needs to continue to exist if you're ever going to reach them.

[00:02:11] Tandi Tuakli: Exactly.

[00:02:12] Barry O'Kane: And so, without further ado, let's meet Büsra.

[00:02:15] Büsra Zanner: My name is Büsra and I'm building Wearr. Wearr is the premium rental platform out of Germany, but we are serving all across EU and we give access to high-end clothing for special occasions like weddings, galas, but also business events.

[00:02:30] Barry O'Kane: And welcome to HappyPorch Radio. Thanks for joining us.

[00:02:32] Büsra Zanner: Thank you very much for having me.

[00:02:34] Barry O'Kane: So, to start us off, I'm interested a little bit in your own journey and what led to starting Wearr. I know you came from a different background and now you're doing this fashion rental startup. So tell us a little bit about that. 

[00:02:45] Büsra Zanner: Yeah, that's an interesting one because not only that I wasn't thinking about building something in and around fashion. I was not even thinking about building a company. And yeah, I come from tech, worked for one of the fastest growing tech startups out of Germany. And actually was having a great time. I had no reason to move or look for something else.

And last year, one fine evening, we were having dinner with a friend of mine and we were talking about this problem of whether it is for business events or for personal occasions, you always need to buy new things, especially if you like to stand out with colorful outfits. And with social media, it is getting even worse because once you have a picture with something, it is basically obsolete. And at the same time we are becoming more and more conscious. So it felt like such a waste to have this wardrobe. Especially for me, after my pregnancy things were either not fitting me or not my lifestyle anymore. And I had, what I called basically, “the wardrobe of shame”. We were basically talking about why shouldn't there be a solution for this?

And the more I talked to other people, the more I realized we weren't alone. This was actually pretty much shared by everyone I've spoken to. And I also know that there were a few startups that tried to sort this before and for various reasons it didn't work out in Germany. But I was so compelled by this complex challenge. That night already, I was searching for logos, bidding for the domain,  and then, I found myself on this journey. So it was pretty much taking me with it.

[00:04:07] Tandi Tuakli: And then how did you go from, as you said, realizing that this is a problem and also that it's quite complex. What was then your first step besides finding the logo, getting the URL finally? Then what was your first step into actually making this sort of a reality and an actual service?

[00:04:25] Büsra Zanner: So first of all, we have spoken to as many people as possible around us. So we've gathered, what basically would be, because there are a lot of different ways of approaching this problem. You can think about a subscription model. You can think about event rentals. And I wanted to find basically the biggest pressing pain point. And it was very obvious that these are the event rentals where you wear one thing and you don't wear again. And then the next step was basically for us, it was perfect timing because we had this dinner late June, and then it was this exploration time in July. Then basically it was already coming very close to Oktoberfest. So we said, let's do an Oktoberfest rental and target people that are coming to Munich from elsewhere, even from other cities in Germany. And they don't wanna spend seven, eight hundred euros on this one outfit. And unlike, something like Carnival, the outfits for Oktoberfest are very traditional and they're meant to be appreciated and they're meant to be high quality and basically, normally you would spend a lot of money on them. And therefore, people that don't live here, this is basically a basic investment. Or they would basically go for something on Amazon for a hundred euros that definitely doesn't look like the real one. 

So basically, this was the prime use case and our hunch was correct. So we basically launched on 9th of September and the end of September is basically when Oktoberfest goes live. And in those two to three weeks, we've gotten more than 60 orders and we had a very small stock of course, as a pilot. And all of our stock was completely booked out.

And I think for a new brand, for a consumer brand this was an amazing start for us to validate our hypothesis.

[00:05:59] Tandi Tuakli: And were you just doing this kind of total bare-bones, like people email you or did you have any kind of system or process in place for this sort of, like pilot?

[00:06:08] Büsra Zanner: Actually, fun fact, because we wanted to be a premium platform from the very beginning, how we looked to the outside world, our customers were super important. So we basically had a Shopify store that was customized for rentals that looked perfectly. Even my colleagues were asking me how long have you been working on this? Was this like a year-long project? And I was like, well, three weeks!

But behind the scenes everything was very manual. We were uploading things manually. I was packing and shipping, picking up Dirndls, like, it was fully manual. And also a lot of orders I actually dropped myself because we didn't have enough time to ship them in the timeframe. And I also picked them up by myself, brought them to dry cleaning. 

And I was actually working at the same time. I was taking time off just to deliver orders and this was a pretty hectic time.

[00:06:57] Barry O'Kane: Just to take on that point that you're saying, that really clear sort of, luxury feel. Tell us a little bit about what that positioning means and why you chose that as a particular way to approach it?

[00:07:08] Büsra Zanner: Of course I might also be a little bit biased from my own experiences. So women that are between ages of 25 to 45, that are working in finance, in tech, that have a certain level of income, they are going to a lot of professional and also personal events. And they basically need fresh outfits all the time. And at the same time, they have a certain sense for quality and experience that they expect. 

And so what I realized is that when I spoke to people in my circle none of them were really open to renting because they thought that this couldn't match the kind of experience that they were expecting. They weren't sure of the quality, et cetera, et cetera. At the same time, they had a high need. 

So this was the perfect place for me to target, to say, Hey, we are going to build a premium ready platform that is highly curated. So the pieces that we have are always from brands. It doesn't mean that they're expensive, but it means that they're high quality. And at the same time that we basically matched the premium retail experience, everything comes in a perfect packaging. There are always really nicely written notes. They see that it's perfectly cleaned, in the perfect condition and they don't have to care about anything else. 

They have return labels sent directly to them. And then they just ship it back to us once they're done with it and they don't have to care about anything else. And we take care of everything from there on. And I think this basically attracted the kind of customers that we have today. So these are journalists, actresses, creators, business leaders in Germany.

They could actually afford these outfits, but they want to have a smarter and more conscious way. And they actually care more about the convenience because they used to buy all of these outfits. They can wear it only once, and then they have to take it to dry cleaning, and then they have to figure out how to store it. And at some point they also get angry about all the money that they've spent. They want to get rid of these dresses because they need more space. And there's just so much hassle connected to owning these pieces. So as soon as we really cracked this niche of rental but premium we could really attract this group very fast.

[00:09:10] Barry O'Kane: You also talked about the way you built the brand and that sort of initial build with the pilot, but also using those, not just experience in the premium feel and the way things are delivered and so on that you described, but partnering and I'm trying to avoid using the word influencer or something like that, but the way that you promote and share the brand.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

[00:09:28] Büsra Zanner: Definitely. First of all, of course, my first approach was, I was looking into how it works, working with creators. Few people that I reached out, and this was like pre-launch, pre-revenue, they were quoting like four or five, six thousand euros just for one post. And I was like, I will never make it anywhere with creators. 

But what I realized quickly is that one, there are more than enough creators out there, and especially for a model like this. I'm solving an exact problem that they have. So there are always more than enough creators out there that are more than willing to speak to Wearr and share about it with their community. 

So basically I went inside out my network to find people that are somehow connected to people that I know. So I started from there, but then also simply cold-outreaching to people. Some people that might have even fewer following, they will either not reply or they will not want to do an unpaid collaboration with you.

But then some people that have maybe even a million or more following they will love what you're doing. It'll resonate with them, and then they will want to support you. And we found these people, these champions that resonated with what we were trying to build. And I was very selective.

So to date there are people reaching out to us and if they don't match our brand positioning, we are not working with them. So we really also curate who we work with. 

And yeah, there are again, more than enough people that are willing to talk. And the more you catch these people, the more others will also see that this is interesting and that they will also want to speak about it to their community because they also need stuff to, wear but also to talk about, and the more value they bring back to their community, the higher engagement they have. 

So it is definitely a win-win. and yeah, so you need to definitely find these champions. And sometimes, now especially, we'll see that. You will have people that have a million following and they will post something about you, but their following is so scattered that you will not get so much out of it.

But then someone with maybe 30,000 people following will talk about you and then suddenly overnight you will get hundreds of people following you. So I would also say to look for people that have perhaps less following but fit really well into the kind of customers that you're attracting.

[00:11:42] Tandi Tuakli: Yeah, it sounds like one thing that's really important and one thing that you have very, like a clear focus on is your customer and their needs and offering them not only premium product but a premium service. 

And I'm wondering how was it for you to be able to offer that? Because I'm assuming most of your rentals are done through online.

How was it translating sort of a premium service as well as balancing that against maybe what technology is actually available and actually the behind the scenes processes? 

How are you able to balance being able to offer women, as you said, this maybe exclusive retail experience that they're used to, but also the challenges of the logistics, as you mentioned before with Oktoberfest. Making sure they get things on time, that things are clean and in good order. 

How was it to try to balance those two things?

[00:12:33] Büsra Zanner: Definitely not easy and we are still learning a lot. So far I'm very proud that we've gotten all of our orders on time, in place, but of course with scale we are going to run into also roadblocks there. We've basically done anything and everything to get something to our customers on time.

Yeah, and I think one thing that was very critical to us was from the very beginning, now that we are switching systems, but from the very beginning we spoke to people that have built rental businesses before. It wasn't fashion rental per se, but people that, for example, build baby equipment rentals and then basically they have given us advice on the kind of systems to use. 

So a lot was manual. We also had the right systems in place to have the overview of the order so that we can really track them and we can make sure that everything gets to them on time. And plus when it came to costs versus customer satisfaction, especially in the early stage, every experience matters. So we basically express mailed it when it was necessary and didn't really mind how much it costs just because it was much more important that this customer was happy. From an acquisition cost, because it's, again, it's so much more valuable that this person is delighted and they go and talk to their friends than whether or not we spend 10 euros more. And so whenever there was a slight risk that this might, maybe 20% arrive late, we've just expressed it, especially early on. Now, we of course have a lot better tracking. So it can do a lot more standard orders as well. But basically whenever it came to customer experience versus cost, we always prioritise customer. 

And basically I'm very proud to share that with this approach, we have 4.9 CSAT and a 100 NPS, and we really see every order that we get today, every new customer, it's purely word of mouth because we are still focusing on other parts of the business first before we go full speed on customer. And even then, it is growing day by day because people are talking to others. And one person actually wrote to me yesterday and she was like, I've heard about you from four different people. Now it's time for me to try it out. I'm looking to rent for this, what would you recommend? 

And I think that also shows that this is really paying off.

[00:14:43] Barry O'Kane: Fascinating. One question I had when you were talking about, the solving all those customer needs from a circularity and sustainability point of view, how do you fit that messaging? Is that an important part of the story you're telling or are you saying that's just a nice to have sort of, an addition?

[00:14:57] Büsra Zanner: So for us circularity is of course at the center. And for me, one thing that I haven't realized before starting is how meaningful it would be also for me to see my dresses on other people, the things that I was sick of after wearing two times. And seeing it on other people and these pieces, having a life and making new stories.

There was, for example, one gown that you know, in one month traveled definitely more than me. Was at a doctors’ ball in Vienna. Then made it to film festival in London and then was in Berlin for the Bundes press ball here, which is basically the media ball. And, seeing all these very impressive women wearing the same gown and this basically circulating in that space was super inspiring. At the same time, I also know that sustainability, of course, everything that we do, this is definitely also a consideration in how we are packaging et cetera. We are already working on also building a reusable packaging for us to really mesh that experience. 

But again, when it comes to thinking between customer experience versus sustainability, like in the case of, for example, express, we definitely prioritize customer experience because of simply the kind of people that we are targeting because they have an event. They rented something for four days, they have to wear it in the time, it has to get to them on that time. And this is so much more important and of course, we are making up in other ways by either donating or choosing basically greener options or in our logistics partner, making sure that basically, a part of the cost is also spent back into the green. 

But again, like when it comes to choosing between the two, we make sure that the customer gets the order on time. I don't know if this makes sense.

[00:16:41] Barry O'Kane: It does make complete sense. Like you say, that's the real core offering and you need the business to survive and what’s fascinating to me and this is something up so much in all of our conversation about circularity for the years across the podcast, is how the experience like circular needs to feel as good as buying new, in order for us to make this shift towards moving away from ownership to other models.

[00:17:01] Büsra Zanner: Exactly. We all love talking about sustainability, but also as someone who has sold sustainable solutions to enterprises before, as part of my job, I know that we all aspire to it. When it comes to paying for it, it's not as present. So for us, therefore it was really important that we really targeted the convenience part et cetera.

And this was a really nice outcome. And as we grow, of course we are working on each of our processes to make sure that we can become more and more sustainable along the way. But as I mentioned, customer experience at all times comes first.

[00:17:37] Barry O'Kane: So just to change tack slightly and go back to what you were saying about the technology and you coming from a tech background. So two part question. One is how has your sort of, background and your technology experience affected the way you approach this startup?

And can you also talk a little bit about what that means in terms of what you're starting to build, the tech stack that you're looking to implement.

And not just now, but maybe what that might look like in the future.

[00:18:01] Büsra Zanner: It has its pros and cons. So pros would be that I don't come from fashion background and that also means that I come here with completely fresh lenses. So that's the perfect place to be, to disrupt an industry and at the same time, of course, it took me also a lot of time to adjust even the way I spoke to people because I'm used to speaking to decision makers at enterprises to sell large scale licenses. And those multimillion dollar conversations go very differently than when I'm trying to sell a rental for nine euros. And that is a very different world. 

And one funny example would be that I used to reach out to some of the creators and be like, Hey, we are going to transform the way we experience fashion and write like a huge paragraph. And nobody responded to me because they mostly read it and they were like, what is she speaking about? Like on what earth is this like, making sense. I didn't resonate with them at all, most likely. And then I started texting people like, Hey, I love this outfit. Next time maybe you can rent from Wearr. We would love to see you in one of our pieces. And then suddenly, I got, I think, responses I get every time.

And so that was a huge adjustment. But at the same time, I will say there's a huge opportunity, especially now with the latest developments to use the stack lenses to build a rental business that can be highly profitable. Because from day one we really cared about the kind of data we collect and how we make use of that data. And this data has many users. So on one side, of course, it helps us to make the right decisions as we are curating our collection so that really we pick the pieces that have the highest potential for rental, but also from a quality point of view that have basically the highest durability so that we can really make profit out of these pieces.

And on the side of the customer as well, when you offer a premium platform, I think it's super important, and we don't see enough of this and I hope that the online shopping experience will also change very soon with all the good stuff happening with AI, but if you look at it in a curated platform, I should go onto this platform and feel like it was created like a mood board for me personally, by my own stylist, based on what they know about my age, my lifestyle, my fashion style, my color preferences, my size, et cetera. So that from the time of me going on there until I leave, it's like a seamless experience. So I tell you, Hey, I have this event and basically I get exactly what I need right away. And now we don't have as many accessories, for example. But my dream would be that we also have more accessories, more bags, et cetera.

So you can really curate entire looks to rent and basically don't even need to think about how to put it together. And I think there as well, data is going to be highly important. So it doesn't feel like a lot of these secondhand platforms, et cetera, it feels like a marketplace and you need to sort through.

And I know some people take a lot of excitement out of this, but for example, I hate it and I know a lot of people that hate it. And so for those people it would be very important that they can make their decisions as fast as possible and get like the perfect look and I think on the third side as well, from our internal operations, like rentals historically have been very resource intensive 'cause you need to list pieces. Listings often didn't have good quality descriptions, size fit notes, et cetera. It looked very messy. The conversions were incorrect. And then  you need to basically, yeah also photograph these items, as well, of course, as part of the listing process. And then you rent it out, you manage your orders to get everything on time. And then you also need to manage the returns and make sure basically the piece goes through a quality check, et cetera, et cetera. 

And along this chain, there are so many pieces that basically you can automate now and therefore build your team as linear as possible. And invest most of your capacity on what matters to the customer as well here. 

And so for me this is like number one priority. And Danai also knows, you also had a podcast with him recently. He works very closely with us and he also knows that this is like a question I ask every second time on like, how can we automate and so on. So I think it's going to be very important. And now with all the good tech I think there's just so much space there with also the size recommendations, for example, which has been historically a big, big pain point for rentals.

[00:22:40] Tandi Tuakli: We talked a little bit about business models, how they're different, there's subscription and different things. I don't think we actually went into exactly your business model and exactly where you're getting your products from.

[00:22:51] Büsra Zanner: So we have different sources and this is mainly coming from the fact that we are still figuring it out. It has been less than a year. So I'm chasing different sources to figure out also what the most efficient and the best channels for us are. So on one side basically at the very beginning we bought the pieces and at retail 'cause we basically had to get stuff out there. 

And of course, like the classic way would be to go around and collect dresses from people. But the quality of things that you get are typically very low. And I wanted to signal the kind of things that we wanted to see.

So we basically picked really stand out pieces from the latest collection, from the brands that we love to see. So we were vision boarding on our website and as things got rented out, we were then, basically buying them and then renting them from their own to, of course, make profit on these pieces.

And then the second biggest channel right now is private lenders. There are a lot of people, of course, with extensive wardrobes and they ship us their pieces and basically we take care of everything for them and then we share the earnings. This is of course, highly cost efficient and also really near and dear to my heart because these pieces are already owned by someone and they are not used. So they're sitting somewhere and we make use of them. So of course this is also just personally a channel that I love. But of course admittedly, it also takes a lot of work to list these pieces in most cases.

But now of course with web scraping, et cetera, we are also able to make this more efficient and especially for the newer pieces where you can find a lot of information online. And then the last basically and I think the channel that will, be very important is the brand and retailer partnerships on the brand side.

What we have seen as the biggest sweet point as the emerging designers that have a lot of need to promote their labels to a broader community. They love the fact that we get orders from across EU and basically, they share their pieces, even see it as a marketing channel for themselves. And on the customer side, this is also perfect because they find pieces that they wouldn't see elsewhere. So it's got a win-win. And on the retailer side as well, basically we are now working with three different retailers to basically build a partnership together and they have extensive stocks. You will see that, if you go onto their website at any given time, there are thousands of pieces on sale. So Wearr becomes a great channel to put these pieces into circulation, make of course revenue out of them, sometimes even much more than what they would've made in sale or even in retail. And at the same time also be associated with an innovative model. That also creates a lot of customer loyalty on their side.

One thing I'm realizing for this channel is that they're really struggling to get to the newer generation  and the newer generation really loves this. They find it super nice, super fresh, and they don't wanna buy, they don't wanna own. And so this is perfect for them as well to attract the newer generation of today brand.

[00:25:54] Barry O'Kane: Yeah, really interesting that you're seeing that mind shift or difference between the way people view ownership and what that means. So that's fascinating. When you were talking about the technology and the vision you have, both for streamlining and being lean and automation in terms of operations, but also then this, as you're talking about the really premium style matching experience in the decision making process. 

But given that you're in the early stage startup where you're all constantly having to make compromises and prioritizing and decisions, how are you approaching that? How are you approaching the really difficult decisions and experimentation and learning with this vision for the technology where you'd like to be?

[00:26:31] Büsra Zanner: It's a very hard one. So I would say there are a lot of use cases and different models you can go for, even in our niche. At the moment, basically my focus, therefore I keep pushing myself to focus on the event rentals and to basically make this core profitable as soon as possible. Along the way, working with the right tech partners to basically bring us closer and closer or at least set the foundation for what we want to build on the tech side. So it's basically really an iteration. So going hand in hand, like for example, now we are changing our back-end that will allow us to be more flexible and also better manage the calendar availability and then start also building customer profiles that will allow us to collect data on our customers and launch store credits and referral programs that will basically bring a lot of different opportunities to the table.

Wishlist, for example, is also a great way of getting data on the customers and so on and so forth. So slowly building the building blocks towards that. 

And then on the other side, really pushing myself to focus on one use case. For example, a lot of our customers ask for like work wear subscription, and I know it can be an amazing offering and a lot of people will love it. And you can make definitely a lot of profit over it because you're again, like targeting a premium segment there. And also of course, like we could pilot it in a way that we also basically can turn around the same items even more because we will have more control over styling, et cetera. But if I know, for a fact, that if I wanna go for this, I need different kind of brands, different kind of pieces, and it's going to be a distraction both on our time as a team, as a very small team and at the same time on our capital. For that reason, constantly pushing myself to stay focused on the event rentals and to build partnerships here and to make this profitable. And once that is profitable, then moving into newer use cases and experiments.

Because this is working right. I think if something isn't working, then it's okay to tweak around and iterate. But when something is working, I think it's good to focus and to make it stand on its own feet before jumping into too many different areas.

[00:28:43] Barry O'Kane: Yeah, that makes a huge amount of sense. Just one last area that I think that's really important that you talked about there, and that's with the right partners. Both from a broader, my passion around circularity and that we can't do it alone, and all of that kind of stuff. 

But also when you're talking about the partnerships like working with partners as a startup, as you say, the small team and picking the right partnerships while still having that flexibility and being able to iterate and learn. 

So can you just quickly talk a little bit about what that looks like for you or how that works out for you? 

[00:29:11] Büsra Zanner: Yes. I think that what is as important as the ones that you pick and say yes to are also the ones that somehow have the potential but you decide not to go for. Because like along the way, especially for sourcing or for operations or for tech, like there are a number of people that we work with and you need to hold a certain level of quality and ROI expectation from any of these relationships. And as soon as you realize that something is getting very complex, the actual outcome isn't as promising. 

So for example, on the side of sourcing, we were looking into very different kind of sources including, for example, boutiques or secondhand platforms. And I could quickly realize that it was so much more interesting to go for creators and their wardrobes than targeting secondhand platforms because they typically have very old pieces. And the pictures they take are horrendous. And like for us to list those pieces, we would need to get those pieces and then we would need to photograph them again. And then we would need to list all of these pieces. So it was so much work to find a needle in a haystack. And at the same time, they took a lot of time. So for me it was so much clearer that it'll be more valuable to invest our time into basically getting pieces from individuals. And a single individual can send us 15, 20 dresses and they're all from the last two seasons. They are all beautiful because these people match our target audience. So it's also like already social proofed, right? That one person liked it most, probably other people would like it. So for example, here, this was super important. 

And same for other kind of partnerships as well, like you will quickly to see that a certain team is just too complex to work with. Takes a lot of time, takes a lot of cash. And then basically holding a high bar and setting the standard there. And this can be very hard because you are a small company. You're just getting started. You don't have so much money, you don't have so much leverage point to say, Hey, I demand more. But I think, how you act also in this term determines how far you will go because you can easily spend a lot of money as well as resources and time dealing with basically people that won't deliver to the quality that you expect.

So I think here for me, the most important was like, as many of them as we said yes to. Also those where we said, okay, this is not working, and we will not invest time here even as a very small startup.

[00:31:38] Barry O'Kane: Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing all of that and the story. And I'm quite inspired by the clarity and the focus that you have and also the story of it coming from technology. So thanks so much. 

[00:31:48] Büsra Zanner: On a day to day basis, it doesn't feel so clear.

[00:31:52] Barry O'Kane: Wonderful. It came across really clear. And just finally, for those listening who want to find out more about Wearr and maybe get in touch, where should they go?

[00:31:58] Büsra Zanner: Of course. You can find us on basically www.wearr.com with two Rs and I think it'll also be written in the notes. And anytime that you have a question, you can also reach out to us at [email protected] and we are always very excited to hear from you and answer any questions you have.

[00:32:16] Barry O'Kane: Wonderful. Thank you. Yes. And as you said there, we always put the links in the Show Notes on the episode page on happyporchradio.com along with a nice bio and picture and full transcript. So just as a reminder, that's W-E-A-R-R.com. 

Thank you so much. Really enjoyed that conversation.

[00:32:29] Büsra Zanner: Same here. Thank you very much.

[00:32:30] Tandi Tuakli: Thanks.

[00:32:31] Barry O'Kane: Thanks for listening. If you enjoy and benefit from these conversations, please help us share with others. Just take a moment to rate and review on your favorite podcast app. Thank you.

[00:32:47]  Outro: This podcast is brought to you by happyporch.com. Whether you need bespoke software development, fractional CTO support, or just expert advice, HappyPorch is here to support your circular economy initiatives. If you're driving innovation and circularity, we'd love to chat. 

Your hosts were Barry O’Kane and Tandi Tuakli. 

Barry is a software engineer, leader, and entrepreneur with over 20 years experience. He founded HappyPorch to help you create web and software solutions that support the shift to regenerative circular economy.

Tandi is a circular expert with over 15 years working in the fashion industry. She's passionate about collaborating with brands to create circular programs that reduce waste, drive revenue, and strengthen customer loyalty.