Barry O'Kane 00:10
Hello and thanks for listening to another episode of HappyPorch Radio, season seven. Today we had the incredible honour of speaking to Paul Foulkes-Arellano. Paul is a circularity educator and consultant at Circuthon Consulting. Circuthon Consulting partners with businesses, guiding them through the changing legislative environment and enabling them to embed circularity into their products and operations. And this was a very wide ranging, incredibly fascinating conversation, but we maybe covered so much that it feels like it's hard to summarise now, Emily.
Emily Swaddle 00:43
Yeah, definitely. But interestingly, we also got a really nice personal story from Paul. So I feel like we sort of have both sides of the spectrum there with, you know, a sort of intimate look at where Paul is coming from in this thing. And then also big picture story of where we might be going with all this. I kind of liked the two sides of the coin there.
Barry O'Kane 01:08
Yeah, definitely. And Paul works on so many different things. And he said himself, that he works across Circular Economy in a very broad sense, which means that there's multiple different sectors and different areas. And please do go and check his website and all that he shares on LinkedIn, because there's so much value there and so many different things, so many initiatives from packaging, and fashion and agriculture and all these different areas he talked about. One thing that we did have an interesting thread, which is very relevant to us is the importance of technology and digital all the way through as a sort of connecting thread for what we talked about. And I feel that's really important, obviously, as listeners, I hope you do, too. What did you think Emily?
Emily Swaddle 01:47
Paul has been working in this sector, or around all sorts of sectors, but like around this topic for a really, really long time. And it feels like there's so much experience that he brings, and so much insight that made his perspective on this whole big picture and zooming out thing that we're doing this season really interesting. And I think our listeners are gonna love it.
Barry O'Kane 02:10
Awesome. So without any further ado, let's meet Paul.
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 02:20
Hi, I'm Paul Foulkes-Arellano, I founded Circuthon Consulting in 2020. I'm a Circular Economy consultant. All I work on is circularity and Circular Economy models and systems. But I work across lots of different industries. So even though it may seem a very narrow focus only to work on Circular Economy, and many people have never heard of Circular Economy, it's actually pretty broad when you work across lots of different industries.
Barry O'Kane 02:52
It certainly is, and welcome to HappyPorch Radio. Thanks for joining us.
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 02:55
Barry O'Kane 02:56
So yes, like you said, Circular Economy is often seen as maybe narrower than it actually is. I had an interesting conversation with somebody recently about how it becomes a lens through which you see everything. So I'm interested in to set the scene you described yourself as Circular Economy consultant there I've seen you describing as doing education work as well. So I guess to start us off- why circularity? Why are you driven to be doing the work that you're doing?
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 03:20
So I guess I began my career in packaging innovation. In fact, the first consultancy I've ever worked with was called Packaging Innovation. That was back in the late 80s. I worked with a creative team who were very into sustainability, we didn't even have that word, then we had, we called it green packaging. And a lot of that came from our German clients who were very much involved in reducing carbon footprint, or again, we didn't really use those words, but reducing packaging impact back then. And over time, I guess the thing that you begin to realise is that if you're really going to make an impact, in manufacturing, in retail, in selling goods of any kind, you kind of have to, like not keep making new stuff. Because that is so energy intensive. Whatever you do, every time you're doing anything, whether it be physically or digitally, you know, you're basically creating a mission. So over time, as I began to really work a lot more on packaging reduction, and I worked alongside somebody who had a PhD in sustainable design. I learned a lot and always the best solution was circularity. Always the best solution was reuse, refill, or in fact, nowadays we prefer reject. We prefer people not to buy anything at all. We love degrowth but you know, really, that drives you to think about things, is that going to be causing any kind of energy usage, is that activity? And if so, can we get rid of it? Can we remove it?
Barry O'Kane 05:05
Yeah, that's amazing. So, having that experience building up and, growing with as circularity grows and becomes a term that's a bit more recognised and maturing, as you said, moving from sort of recycle through to reuse and now reject and sort of, and it feels like that model is maturing a bit. So you describe working and packaging there. But then the next step- there must have been, I don't know, maybe not, maybe there was a step at which -you know, I'm going to do this consultancy, I'm going to do this. Circularity is the thing.
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 05:37
Yes, I think when I decided to sort of work independently, it was very much about impact reduction. So I think we often talk about impact reduction, we can reduce the impact of something, we can't make something completely sustainable, because we are often as businesses, the ones that I work with, they are sustainable, but the planet is getting warmer there. It's not that sustainable, really. But we could talk about it. And I guess probably track back a little bit to 2018 when I was at a big design conference in Boston, talking about reducing plastics. And people came to me from design community and said, What can we do as the design community. And in fact, I then set up an NGO called the Sustainable Design Alliance, we went out to educate, we went out to universities to MBA students, to master students, to professional conferences, to educate about sustainable design. And I guess it was during that 2018 to 2019. when every time I spoke, I was like, oh, yeah, the answer is the Circular Economy. The answer is not keep making lots and lots of rubbish. Because no matter how beautiful your rubbish is, no matter how durable things are, at some point, the end of life comes and you get rid of them. And you would be seeing mountains of mobile phones, you will be seeing mountains of footwear, mountains of everything. You know, journalists were very much I think, investigating what was going on, it suddenly became people talk about the blue planet effect, with David Attenborough making people aware of plastic. But suddenly, journalists were like, what else is being lifted? What else is, are we doing as consumers and plastering all over the planet? And it became very obvious that everything that we ever buy ends up as trash at some point, apart from a very few items. And they are very few. So that really, I think, made very concrete in my mind that Circular Economy was the focus. Did I think it would be successful? Kind of half-yes nd half-no. Did it matter? Kind of not really. I think I just thought, well, if this doesn't work out, I'll do something else. You know, I'll go back and work as a packaging design consultant. Again, I won't just do this. But I never expected to be deluged by client inquiries from all these different industries, it was always going to be about really food and drink, which is my kind of background. And it's ended up being footwear, packaging companies themselves, right through to agriculture, and, you know, raw materials, it's been very widened as time goes on. And more people discover Circular Economy, you get inquiries from furniture businesses, or, you know, people that have forests that grow bizarre things, and they want to know what to do. So it really stretches across so many different places. And I think the next area will very much be our digital world. I think that's where we need to look at digital circularity because, you know, we are going more and more digital. And we have to think about that.
Emily Swaddle 09:21
I want to hear more about digital circularity and where we're going next, but just maybe to round off this, how did you get here question? I'm wondering what like, personally motivates you to be in this space because as you said, you could just go back to packaging and, you know, make a living and do a good job. And that could be great. But this is a very, you know, it's a space that does tend to be filled with people who are passionate about something. So I'm just wondering, what's bringing you here?
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 09:55
Yeah, that's very true. I could just do a much simpler job. without my neck on the line and spend, you know, hours and hours researching topics just to make sure that, I'm on top of the science. But it is very much about biodiversity. I think when I was five or six, I wanted to be a zookeeper. When I was seven, I wanted to be David Attenborough and go around and travel the world and look at Komodo dragons and lemurs. And I think I probably still do, I think that probably looked at it and the conditions aren't very nice. And you have to live in a tent. Actuelly, there's lots of insect bites. I mean, I've spent lots of time in jungles and on beaches, and you get a lot of insect bites. And so that kind of puts me off that really for doing it for a living. But it's what drives me, you know, I'm absolutely obsessed by butterflies, by moths, which I never thought I would be. But I now have huge number of day flying moths in my garden. I've replanted the garden to have all these moths, which are absolutely brilliant. We only have a few butterflies in Britain, literally just a few dozen different species. Yet we have 1000s of different moths. And I've had some, like quite rare ones appear, which has been interesting. But yeah, I'm driven by nature. I guess again, going back further, I grew up in a house on the very outskirts of Manchester. And my house backed onto a field and the field as you walked through it, within about 60 seconds, you're on the bank of the River Mersey. Those banks in those days were teeming with butterflies, ladybirds, all kinds of insects. So I spent most of my summer sitting on the riverbank, we didn't have electronic games, we sat on the riverbank, and we watched the river. And we played with bits of grass, and rosebay willowherb and stuff. That was our youth. And I've kind of, I still find that far more interesting than actually working, I would much rather not work and just sit on a riverbank. I think what I do now allows me to do that I can actually just say, this afternoon, I'm going to sit on the riverbank and watch swans and grebes and mallards and just think about what they do. And that's actually quite refreshing. And you end up thinking about business stuff, obviously, but it's a great place to do it.
Emily Swaddle 12:34
That's really beautiful. I have a picture of this riverbank and all teeming with life. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. So then, from that passion, and now the work that you do, does it. I mean, you know, you've already spoken about like the warming planet and this like, you know, need to protect the natural world. And you say that the Circular Economy is always the solution that you come down to. Can you talk a bit more about that, like how you draw that line?
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 13:04
Yeah. So, above and beyond pure circularity. I have a couple of my own concepts which, you know, I can't patent them or trademark them. But for me circularity, on its own isn't enough, circularity is great, because it keeps toxic rubbish out of the way. But the two concepts that I kind of live by are toxic free circularity, meaning, there are no dangerous chemicals or poisons in what I do. So a lot of my work is about taking toxics out of supply chain, whether that be in agriculture, so pesticides within agriculture, whether that be additives within packaging, whether that be things like PFA finishes in fashion. So that's part of what I want to achieve is this toxic free circularity. But what I'm really aiming for and what really will be a game changer is something I call absolute circularity. And it means one kilo in, one kilo out of a supply chain. One tonne in, one tonne out. 20 kilojoules in. 20 kilojoules out. Now, scientifically, that's really, really difficult. Because your whatever you do, in terms of trying to limit usage or trying to limit raw materials, or energy, you can't have 100% You can't really do that terribly easily. unless everybody just stops buying stuff and stops travelling and stops eating. But we can't really do that. But we can massively reduce consumption. We can massively reduce transportation, well, not necessarily all transportation, but certainly diesel ,coalfire transportation, we can definitely reduce that. So what I'm looking to do ultimately, in any project is get a very big company, probably a company, you know, turning over several billion dollars to bring down massively, the amount of energy it uses, but also try and encourage them to sell less. And that is where things get tricky, where we start to talk about genuine degrowth. And people are very scared with the word degrowth, they think it's some kind of left wing conspiracy, but in fact, you can still be highly profitable in an era of degrowth. And that's what people don't really understand is that degrowth doesn't mean not having any profit, it means having less units. And you can make lots of money with more units. A plastic cup costs a penny, a reusable cup costs a pound, you make more money per unit with a reusable cup. And, you know, you're also reducing emissions as well. So, yeah,some quite complex issues involved in what I'm trying to do. But I think nowadays, it's much easier to do it, people are beginning to become aware of these concepts. 10 years ago, they would be very Anti. In 2023,yes, you get whole industries, which are Anti, the whole grocery industry is pretty much- they're not Anti-reuse, they just say it can't be done. And that's where you run into difficulties.
Barry O'Kane 16:41
And difficulties that you must be facing day to day and constantly be pushing against. But to sort of try and bring some of what we're talking about to life a little bit., have you got a project or a story that you're most excited about that as an example of that kind of work that you can share with us?
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 16:59
Yeah, I think some of my most exciting work is not fee paying work. Because I think one of the things that happens when you become very passionate about something is you do passion projects, and you work with young entrepreneurs you get many approaches from young entrepreneurs when you're doing what I do. And being vocal about it, probably every week, you get yelled at by saying, I'm doing this, can I you know, can you be my mentor? Can I have some time with you, etc, etc. And every so often something turns up and you're like, Wow, this is absolutely game changing. This really could help me achieve what I want to but also be an amazing case study for the world to say, look, these young people in India, America, Italy, Australia, Singapore, Ghana, Nigeria, there's a lot of amazing stuff happening in Sub Saharan Africa, are doing this stuff. So if they can do it, and they have no funds, and they have no supply chain. Yeah, you can also do it. So why not? So a good example would be I'm working with a company in Milan, who are rescuing fabric, which sounds like a weird thing that sounds like the fabrics have been taken hostage and they're being you know, set free. But what they're doing is looking at the whole of the Italian supply chain, Italy is a massive, massive country for fashion. I think I looked at the figures the other day, I may be exaggerating, but I'm pretty sure it said 94 billion euros, the Italian fashion industry is worth. But then you think which are the brands that sell across the world in Italy. And what prices do they sell out? Versace, Prada, these absolutely stonking great big brands. Gucci is now owned by the French, but it's kind of Italian. And what they're doing is looking at the whole supply chain, and finding abandoned clothing, abandoned fabrics, textiles sitting in warehouses that have been there for decades, sitting there, just gathering dust, and it's all really perfectly good stuff that you can use and make into things. That clothing can go back on sale. I mean, it's probably back in fashion by now, the fabrics can be turned into all kinds of things, you know, furniture, curtains, as well as clothing. So there's all of this, what they call in the fashion industry, deadstock sitting around, but what you need to do is first of all, digitise it all. You need to know what you've got. So the first thing you need to do is actually go out and start creating a database of everything that you have, and then telling the world look, we've got got 1000 metres of this, we've got 1000 metres of that, and creating a digital platform, and an interface whereby people can access that, and then work out where it needs to go. And as I've been working with the guys in Milan, who are called Must Had, musthad.com, I think is the website, we've begun to see that this is scalable, not just in Italy, but in France, in the UK, in the US, in China, in Hong Kong, it works everywhere. Because we know, there are, I mean, the estimate is between half a billion and a billion dollars of lost fabric just sitting around now, nevermind clothing, which again, traditionally big fashion brands burn their clothing, so that it couldn't be sold on a secondary market, which I believe they are still doing sometimes, even though there's been a kind of moratorium on burning Burberry and things like that. So, that gets me really excited. Because it means that we can stop creating new fabrics, if there's all this stuff around. Why do it? And then you then look at other industries, the same thing is there. Many of the entrepreneurs I work with, they're using AI blockchain to kind of trace things to understand where things are. Only when you understand what's there, can you then say to industry, use this, instead, stop keep producing virgin textiles, virgin electronics, virgin packaging. So I have this kind of term that I've taken really from, we talked about virgin plastics by extended to everything, you know, don't keep using virgin, use the stuff that we already have. If you've got a spade, just paint it don't buy a new one. That is I will say the L in circularity stands for longevity, because ultimately, if we keep using stuff, we don't need to keep making new stuff. And that pretty much goes for any industry.
Emily Swaddle 22:12
Where do you see this going, Paul? So, you gave us this, like really interesting example of the fashion industry in Italy. And those numbers of how much stock is bought, and how big the industry is, and how much is wasted and everything. It's like overwhelmingly huge numbers. And that's just one industry in one country. And, you know, there's so much, speak, talk going on. So when we zoom out a bit, and look at sort of this big picture, where do you see it all going?
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 22:43
Yeah, So I think that the simplest thing, and it's not really Circular Economy, it's waste reduction. But you can't do circular until you start tackling the waste reduction. I mean, just give you a figure, the US footwear Association, set up a programme in China to look at Factory waste in shoe factories. And they were finding between 30 and 40% waste in the factories, they were reducing waste by 30 to 40%, by taking on experts who were waste reduction experts, and you just think, how much money is that? You know how much because ultimately, if you're trying to convince a financial director to do something, if you say you do realise that your profits could be 30% higher, if you reduce waste, they're gonna be you know, their eyes will light up, their ears will prick up because wow, that is a lot of money. So ultimately, first of all, reduce the waste. And then secondly, keep products going round and round. The thing that you have to do is make sure they're monetized. Businesses don't like products to go round and round, if they're not getting money from it. So they want, if we think about the automotive industry, they want to service those items. For many, many years, the automotive industry has made no money from selling cars, but all of its money from servicing those cars, and making the spare parts and that pretty much continues. But that has to be the way forward for other industries so that you either buy something, or hire something or subscribe to something. And the profit comes from keeping it going, rather than from keeping making new things. So where will it go? I think when money people look at this, they begin to understand it. It goes, you know, it basically goes into hyperdrive. People start to look at how they can do it. The numbers that have been thrown around about what is the lost opportunity of not being circular? It's not in the billions. It's in the trillions. And there are lots of countries whose GDP is in the billions. So it's nowhere near the trillions, therefore we are talking huge amounts of money. And because of tech, because of the amazing metrics that we've got nowadays, we can do that. We can create satellites that can monitor forests, we can get them into orbit, you know, we can look at methane emissions, a charity in the US, has raised a lot of money to build a satellite. So that can literally look at methane from, you know, looking down on the planet go, Oh, my God there's methane everywhere. But now we can go to government and say, Look, this is where the methane is. Let's stop it. And that's where I find this, kind of juncture, now, where what is kind of very green, what I would call kind of ultra green thinking, let's save the orangutan mixes with, you know, really deep, deep tech, in terms of understanding how we can tackle things. And in fact, all of the investment money right now, if you look at VCs is going into climate tech. Tech and VC, kind of kicks off an industry, and then the rest of the world catches up.
Barry O'Kane 26:15
Yeah, that's often the case. Really interesting. Obviously, from our point of view, the tech lens, and the digital lens is really important, not so much as to what or how, the nuts and bolts of the technology, but that sort of rule that it can play or that is playing. I wanted to ask you a question about something you said earlier, you talked about digitisation of the tracking and the measuring. And then you said these wonderful metrics. Let me say this as a hypothesis. So at the moment a lot of the technology, the tools, the operating systems that businesses use, whether that's everything from stock control, ecommerce, all the way through to everything that we use, is kind of optimised for that linear flow. You know, we're all about - let's sell things. Let's get them through, let's get them up through the supply chain, let's maximise this one way flow. And so I'm wondering if you can, if you're seeing an addition to what you're talking about there, the potential and the real change that that technology used in the right way is having for circularity and climate tech more broadly. But are you also seeing places where technology is kind of, you know, in the way or existing processes, which often come from the technology that a business runs, is part of the sort of putting brakes are part of the challenge to change a larger company's momentum?
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 27:34
That's a really good question. And you're absolutely right. Everything's been built around a linear economy. So all the systems that we have in place by defaqto have to work on linearity, because we live in a linear economy. That's something we can't change. So we do live in, you know, the tech that's been created is linear, but people have been working on circular systems for quite a long time. I mean, it's not I think Circular Economy was first coined in 2008, 2009. So people have had plenty of time to think about it. And I track companies that are working in the Circular Economy. So something very close to home for anyone in the UK would be the Deposit Return Scheme. So as of, I guess, August or September, this year in Scotland, every time you buy a beverage, there's a 20p deposit, and you have to give it back to get your money back. Now, people have said, well, we're going back to the 70s. Because instead of putting your rubbish in the, you know, the bin outside your front door, you're going to have to walk all the way back to the corner shop or all the way back from the supermarkets to get your money back. And surely that's going to cause more trips, people are going to get in their car with a whole pile of bottles or cans, and drive specifically to the supermarket to drop them off. Because people never did it in the old days. Just take them when they went shopping. They you know, they went And we're also, in 2023,we're in a world of Ecommerce. Many people don't go shopping, you know, they buy 48 cans of soft drink from Amazon, how are they going to get it back. But one very bright company I've been tracking, called Polytag, had been working on this for years looking at how to create a digital deposit return scheme. But that involves infrastructure. Because what you need is individual QR codes or barcodes, but they also need to be scanned when they're at the sorting facility. So if you're going to bypass the supermarket, you need to put them in your rubbish outside. But when they arrive at the sorting facility, they need to be scanned back in and that money going back in your wallet. Well, they've done it, they've created the system. So when you see the printing press that prints the labels that go on these. Or if you see QR codes being laser etched into a glass bottle, which again exists already. And it's astonishing - the speed at which they etch that, people have been working on it, people got ready for it. And what is fascinating is the solutions are out there. They've been trialled. So Ocado is trial Polytag. Other people have trialled the glass bottle QR codes, and they have a matching one on the label. So that you can actually stop counterfeiting as well. I mean, the way that people think, systems wise, is just astonishing, because they are used to solving this kind of problem. They're like, Okay, tell me what the universe is, tell me what the ecosystem is, supply chain, you know, I'll give you a solution. Here's the interface, press that button, and anyone can do it. And it is that simple. And I think that has happened in a period of probably three years, the actual delivery of that. The trials took place at the end of 2022, it will go live in 2023. That's how quickly people can work, but only when they have the right information. Because that is, I think, the most difficult thing. In all of this, often we have the wrong metrics, the wrong information, therefore, the systems created are not fit for purpose, because they're not based on reality. So in any evolution of a system, particularly a circular system, you have to also think about consumer behaviour, because consumers can mess it up as well, which I'm sure you know from other industries and other projects.
Barry O'Kane 31:43
Yeah, very, very much so. So that's really exciting. And that's a brilliant example, or story, or a couple of examples of not just context relevant solutions and technology, but also the speed of those things being able to come together. To me that's so important and listeners of the podcast will be very familiar with me talking about what I see is the software development technologies, is currently one of the most privileged one of the most powerful sort of sectors and skill sets on the planet. As I think with great power comes great responsibility, we have a moral right, to be thinking about how that technology is implied in the right way. And part of that means thinking not just about technology, but really understanding where it's used. So understanding the circularity, which is what you're talking about there, really understanding the solutions, technologists, we say we love tough problems. But too often, we shy away from the most interesting problem of all, which is where does it work in the real world with real people, and these much more complex situations than they do just on the motherboard on the computer. So that's really brilliant and really exciting for you to have sort of, and also as a thread of what we've been talking about there, real thread of digitization to understand, and then relevant technology solutions that can accelerate and enable solutions that wouldn't be possible. That's really exciting. And thanks for sharing all of that. Unfortunately, we're starting to sort of run a little bit out of time. But I'd like to make sure we get a couple of last questions in because I know we have, we've barely scratched the surface of the very broad scope of work that you're doing. You know, you mentioned some of the initiatives you do and how it crosses so many different sectors. But from your point of view, looking forward- what excites you most? Where are the places where you think- these are the places where over the next year or two years, you're going to be part of a bigger, of an accelerated change?
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 33:33
I think for me, the most exciting thing is the speed of education and the speed of adoption of certain things. So I would say a lot of this great circularity is pretty restricted to Europe right now. So, Europe has led, as a continent, on circularity. I do a lot of work in Australia, the infrastructure just isn't there even for basic recycling, nevermind, circularity and bigger picture stuff, but they're gonna have to get there quickly. They're gonna have to leapfrog Europe and do it very quickly. When you look across Africa, Asia, Latin America, their nation's full of very young people, you know, they've got a much younger age profile. And people are ready to leapfrog. You know, young people that I work with, young activists are ready to go from linear straight into absolutely circular. They don't have an issue with some of these really grander aims. They're like, yeah, we're starting from scratch. We'll build it like that. Just tell us what the model is, and we will make it happen. And for me, that's the exciting bit. We have traditionally dumped, the G7 countries have dumped our stuff in developing countries that have little infrastructure to deal with it. So whether we're talking about electronic waste, whether we're talking about packaging waste, and often toxic chemicals are being shipped out in containers and dumped in countries that literally cannot deal with that. where we have a lot of biodiversity. So that all has to change. But I feel the best thing is that we're getting the legislation that we need. And the reason that Digital DRS happen so quickly- legislation. Once you have legislation, you can see businesses moving at the speed of light. If there's no legislation, both businesses and investors will say, Well, I'll invest when the legislation is here, or I will implement when the legislation is here. But we're getting that very kind of like draconian, the industry would say legislation coming in. And it's making people work more quickly and more intelligently and not dragging their feet because they can. And that, for me, is the most exciting bit.
Barry O'Kane 35:53
Yeah, brilliant, thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining us, really appreciate your time and sharing. And that was a really amazing conversation with us all. Just finally, for the listeners who want to find out more about you or get in touch or the work that you do, where should they go?
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 36:07
So easiest place to go is circuthon.com, which is CIRCUTHON. If you look me up on LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn. As anyone who knows me will, will see Paul Foulkes-Arellano, Circuthon Consulting on LinkedIn. And that's where you'll find most of the information. But also, if you google Paul Foulkes-Arellano, I'm the only Foulkes-Arellano apart from the rest of my family, you will see lots of articles about packaging, about fashion and about general circularity dotted over the internet. So have a look there as well.
Barry O'Kane 36:47
Awesome, thank you so much. I do encourage people to go and check out the work you're doing, as you say you're very active on LinkedIn, which is brilliant. I find out a lot of things that you're sharing and learn a lot from your LinkedIn feed, which is brilliant. We'll link to that and to Circuthon and also the different initiatives and other projects you're involved in. There's so much, so for the listeners definitely worth going and checking out the sites. As usual we'll link them in the Show Notes. Thanks again, Paul. Really appreciate your time.
Paul Foulkes-Arellano 37:13
Emily Swaddle 37:14
Thank you, Paul. Thank you for listening to this episode of HappyPorch Radio. You can find past episodes, transcripts and show notes at happyporchradio.com. You can also get in touch with us there and let us know what you think. Or if you have any ideas or comments, please rate the podcast, share and subscribe so that more people can find the show.
Barry O'Kane 37:37
Thanks for listening. My name is Barry O'Kane. I founded HappyPorch who fund and support this podcast.At HappyPorch we do technology and software development for purpose led businesses and we're particularly excited about the role of digital as an enabler for the Circular Economy. If you're working on solutions to the big problems we face today, problems like climate change, biodiversity loss and global inequality then let's connect,visit happyporch.com and get in touch.
Emily Swaddle 37:59
And I'm Emily Swaddle, podcaster coach, facilitator and storyteller. You can find me on my other podcast, the Carbon Removal Show, and you can find out more about that project and everything else I do at emilyswaddle.com where you can also subscribe to my newsletter All about Rest. If you're interested in anything I do, feel free to connect. You can email me on email@example.com