[INTRO]
[0:00:05.8] ANNOUNCER: Welcome back to Happy Porch Radio. The digital agency podcast
for progressive agency owners and web professionals. Season four is an exploration of diversity
in our industry. Especially gender diversity.
This season, your host, Barry O’Kane is joined by some wonderful co-hosts. For conversations
with agency leaders and diversity and inclusion experts.
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:43.7] BOK: Welcome back to Happy Porch Radio. In this episode, Kelly and I are joined
by another Kelly. Kelly Mackenzie is founder of White Bear Studios who are a creative design
agency with offices in London and Dublin. Recently, Kelly and her team launched Shape. A new
diversity scheme looking to get more school kids into design.
Shape is a really inspiring initiative and Kelly shares the genesis of Shape and how they went
from idea to reality while growing and running the agency at the same time. We also talk about
how having a baby was a really positive experience for White Bear, as well as a big change for
her personally.
So, let’s meet Kelly.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:16.9] KM1: I’m Kelly Mackenzie, the creative director and founder of White Bear Studios.
We are a branding and design agency based in London and in Dublin. A little bit about white
bear people tend to be a bit intrigued as to where the name came from. There was this
American psychologist called Daniel Wagner and he had a theory. If you ask not to think about
something, all you could do is think about that one thing. So during all these tests, the actual example that he used was try not to think about a white bear and he found that once that seed
had been planted and nobody could go longer than 10 seconds so that they’re thinking about a
white bear.
That’s what we do in White Bear studios we tend to plant seeds in our target audiences’ mind
that they just create these memorable moments that they can’t stop thinking about. We are a
branding and design agency, passionate about problem solving, taking tangible differences to
businesses. So not design for design sake but design that makes a difference. That enough of
an introduction for you Barry?
[0:02:22.9] BOK: That’s wonderful, thanks Kelly. I hadn’t heard that story before, that’s brilliant.
[0:02:28.2] KM1: Yeah, I came about that many years ago, even before I set up my studio, it
was always going to be called White Bear Studio.
[0:02:35.2] BOK: Excellent. Thanks so much, really welcome to the podcast, thanks so much
for joining us.
[0:02:39.2] KM1: Well, thank you for having me Barry and Kelly. It’s great to talk.
[0:02:44.4] BOK: We have Kelly, we have two Kellys, we have Kelly Molson back as well. Hi
Kelly.
[0:02:47.9] KM2: Hi guys.
[0:02:49.7] BOK: White Bear studios, you mentioned there that you kind of had the name
almost before you had a studio. Tell us a little bit about where you started the studio and a bit of
more of that back story.
[0:02:58.8] KM1: Essentially, my background is in branding and design, I’d studied in IADT in
Dublin over 10 years ago. In that time or since that time, I spent some time working in Dublin,
Australia and then in London for the last many years really. Focusing on branding and design.
What I found and working in larger agencies and working in smaller agencies is that you don’t need a really big design team to make a tangible difference to the business that you’re working
with.
In fact, in my opinion, it can be counterintuitive to have a huge design team instead of having a
smaller outfit. What I think is hugely beneficial for our clients is when they ring, they don’t’ have
to be put through to the marketing department or the web department or the branding
department.
All of us, we are very small team and from five to 10, five being the core team and then
depending on the projects but when any of our clients call, we are all able to answer their
questions, we work together on every project which we find makes a far more consistent and
considered solution. We get very invested in our projects at White Bear.
A little bit of background then. I,in London, worked in a number of studios and then finding that
the small team could create great results, I left nearly five years ago and set up White Bear
studio starting with just myself, a laptop and my dog, Hip, you know, our front room of our house
then growing over the past nearly five years in a larger team.
In our team that we all have different specialties, we work closely on every project together. It
sounds a little bit funny, I always get asked, “Well you’re Irish, why did you setup a studio in
England?” It actually happened by accident a little bit. I left and set up White Bear and then
realized I actually didn’t have a network of anybody really in London and in the UK that my
network was in Dublin so I had to start in London by essentially knocking on doors, going to
networking events, going to the opening of an envelope.
Initially to me, to anybody that are good and just started from there from the ground up and then
a little bit in the reverse order, then set up the Dublin studio later on. That’s a bit about the
studio I guess.
[0:05:23.4] BOK: Yeah, brilliant. The reason I was really interested in the background and the
background of the studio is - and for the listeners who will know that this season of the podcast
is all about diversity and inclusion. Recently, you launched something called Shape. Can you
tell us a little bit about that?
[0:05:39.8] KM1: Yes, absolutely. Shape is something, it’s a new initiative that is very close to
our hearts, all the bears and then in White Bear. We started it - maybe I should give a little
background about why we started it before, what it actually is. I found when setting up White
Bear and very quickly, that it was quite a lonely environment being in the design industry as a
female business owner. It was a little bit lonely for me, I didn’t have peers to discuss challenges
that I was having.
Yes, as I looked around, there weren’t many other female business owners in the industry. I
started talking about this a bit more in the studio, we are actually predominantly female studio at
the moment, not exclusively obviously. But predominantly. And we started discussing about the
problem in more detail and the wider we looked, the more we realized that actually there isn’t a
huge amount of diversity at all in the design industry.
Which was something that we hadn’t considered really beforehand. Looking into it in more
detail, we try to work out, well why is this and there were a number of things that arose through
our conversations in the studio. Again, it’s not being an initiative in the beginning, more just a
conversation and we felt that the perception of design can be seen firstly as a bit of a luxury and
to study design, it can be an expensive course to take.
Also, it can be perceived as a bit of a risk, a bit of I think I can remember someone saying to
me, well, you’re going to be a painter if you study something creative and the lack off awareness
there as to the many different careers that you could go into, starting your creative course, it
wasn’t there and I wasn’t personally aware of where my parents weren’t aware of the options
that would be opened to me.
I think in the studio, we decided that some of the challenges were the lack of education is to
what a design course could lead you to in terms of a career path. Also, support and in schools
and by parents by choosing a creative course. So we saw this as kind of core issues that would
prevent somebody choosing design. Then, I guess we felt well, how can we do something about
this, anything small just to make our kind of contribution and that’s what Shape is about. The
purpose of Shape I guess we say is to encourage diversity and design and the way we see an
impact that we can see that we can make is going into schools and doing workshops. Yes, that’s I guess the purpose of Shape is to increase diversity and to educate students about
the benefits of a creative design and career. That’s I guess a really broad intro into Shape, I can
talk about it in a little bit more detail if you would like.
[0:08:40.8] KM2: Yeah, definitely. I would really love to know what happens in a typical
workshop. Can you take us through what you would actually do when you go into the schools?
[0:08:50.4] KM1: Yes, absolutely. Again, this is a very new initiative of ours and actually our first
workshop is next week. We are talking about what we are going to be doing rather than what we
have done. We have done many a run through and I can talk you through exactly what a
workshop would entail.
Initially, the workshops are about two and a half hours long, with a few breaks throughout for the
students. We are going into, speak to year nine and year ten so some will have chosen their
GCSCs, some are in the process of choosing. So we hope to be able to, I guess, influence that
decision.
The workshops when we actually start running them, there will be I think around about 30
students per workshop and they go in three parts. Initially, we’re going to do an intro as to what
actually is design, that can be a very broad subject and many students might not actually know,
what actually is design and we’re going to be highlighting that design is all around you and try to
get the students to observe, I think a statistic is easy a hundred or 30 pieces of design on
average on our commute to work.
We are going to – we’re actually all going to do our journey to the schools and take pictures of
the various pieces of design that we see along the way to share. A little bit of background about
how design is all around you. We would love for Shape to grow bigger than graphic design but
obviously graphic design is our expertise. Initially the workshops are going to be about graphic
design and there’s room to grow in the future.
In the introduction about graphic design, we’ll be talking about four key areas of design to
consider and color, owning a color, owning topography, hierarchy of information and how we
digest and read information and the power of image. We have little games for them throughout.
There’s also who wants to be rally interactive in engaging so we will be showing them colours like Cadbury’s purple and getting them to name the brand. Sharing letters from the various other
brands and from film posters and getting them to name the film posters to highlight to them that,
just by seeing say, one letter from the Coca-Cola logo that it’s Coca-Cola.
So it’s by creating that visual link. Then we get on to the real fun part where we have developed
Shape cards. We’re going to split the workshop room into groups and they will be given
essentially a random brief. How the brief will work is that we have a deck of cards split into four
different teams so everybody will get a new card and a problem card, an outcome card and a
tip.
Perhaps if I talk you through maybe an example that might explain how they would work so we
give out a name card. For example, we’ve come up with a number of brand or campaign names.
Let’s take Glow for example is one of the ones that we have and we would come up with a
problem and our problem tends to have an issue and also a target audience.
A problem for example could be encouraging students to use less plastic. That would be their
problem, their name is glow, they encourage students to use less plastic and then the outcome,
again, this will be another round of selection from the cards where we have a number of those
outcomes. For example, it could be create social media campaign. And then lastly, we would
give them a tip. On this tips, we have various things for them to consider and for example, it
could be a tone of voice or emotion, what you want somebody to feel when they see your social
media campaign.
We will be giving them these four different themes for them to work on in a group. Using
problem solving skills because we see graphic design as a powerful tool for problem solving so
we’re giving them a problem essentially and getting them to solve it using creativity. Then they
will present it back to us and that’s essentially the workshop.
However we do have a larger brief in the next mission as well, that will fall along from it. Any
questions on the kind of the workshop or – does that make sense?
[0:13:19.5] KM2: Yeah, it does make sense, I think it’s brilliant. I think it’s really engaging what
you’re asking them to do and I love the idea that you’ve got a larger brief that they can take part
in as well.
[0:13:30.5] KM1: Yeah, the larger brief is something that we’re also quite excited about, we will
be leaving the deck of cards and with the art class teacher and anyone interested in taking on
the larger brief, we will be giving them, again, a random selection of the four cards and they will
be able to do that brief in their own time.
What we want to do then is have an exhibition at the end of the year for anybody who enters the
larger brief. The exhibition, we’re going to exhibit all the work and then what’s exciting about it is
that there will be prizes. Always excited when there’s prizes.
Things that we would like the prizes to be, we have a number of studios which we’re excited
about that are offering placements. So students can get a real feel for what it’s like to be in the
studio and we have offers from not just design studios but various creatives - creative agencies
and studios so they will be able to get it, a real feel for what it’s like and would they like to go
down the creative path for the future.
We’ll also be offering any type of mentorship fee, again a really valuable too and finally, in terms
of prizes, we would like to offer art supplies and art vouchers to encourage the students to, I
guess keep up the creativity and keep drawing.
[0:14:59.0] BOK: Yeah, that’s really brilliant, Kelly. You mentioned the art teachers. Is there
something or was it difficult to – when you came up with this idea to go from idea to like you
said, your first one is in a school next week. How did you reach out to the school? It sounds like
you put a huge amount off effort into the actual design of this workshop.
What was the process to go from that idea to now running your first one next week?
[0:15:19.7] KM1: To be honest, it has taken a long time, obviously, all of us are fitting this in to
our spare time in the studio and we’re all really passionate but it is taking – has taken a
considerable amount of time to birth Shape, I guess.
How we went about it, we actually started at like we would a branding project with ourselves and
students being the clients. We started with the branding, coming up with the name, Shape,
being representing support, health, advice, play and encourage. We were delighted when we found that that came together to make the word Shape. That was
our starting point, we got excited about that. Then we went on to make a quite significantly long
list of schools in the London area. We specifically tried to curtail this to a list of – I guess we’d
say underprivileged schools or schools with less funding for the arts.
Our list again was very long and then we went on to contact the actual art teachers in the
schools and we were amazed at how receptive they were and how quick they were to get back
to us and we went about that process, maybe about five or six months ago, all is being really
keen to book in and to get involved. It was funny how we can go from a project in the studio that
we’re all internally thinking about all of a sudden putting it out there and seeing a real demand,
that was very exciting.
Yeah, we have a long list of studios. We have shortened it down to initially 15. We’re starting
with 15 studios or not studios, 15 schools, many of them being in East London and that’s where
we’re at on that.
[0:17:09.3] BOK: Yeah, that’s just totally amazing. I love the fact that you just said that about it
and seeing it come to life from an idea into now you’re going to school next week, that’s really
cool.
Was it difficult to do that early stage, you’re coming up with an idea like you said, you’re also
running the agency and the team and doing projects and so on. Quite often, within agencies or
within teams, there’s often a side project or an idea which is bubbling away or just you know,
just mentioned over lunch or something.
Was it difficult to actually – yeah, there must have been quite a bit of time involved in that, was it
difficult to kind of push that into reality or was it just kind of happened and everybody was
excited about it so it just happened?
[0:17:47.3] KM1: I don’t’ think anything like Shape can just happen, it did take a lot of work. I
think what happened, I think there was a bit of a turning point where we probably spent nearly a
year talking about it in the studio, thinking about it and getting pushed on the long finger a
number of times for client deadlines and other things jumping in the way. But it was very much a passion project, so we would have been working others in our spare time and any day time that
we had. I think the turning point to be honest with you, when schools got back to us and said,
“Actually yes we want to do this,” and then we’re like all right, okay.
So now we actually have to get it together properly. It is not just an idea. So that very much put
the weavers in motion and unscheduled the whole process. So there was a long drawn out time
of talking and then very quick action and response I guess once we had schools signed up.
[0:18:41.6] BOK: And that comes back to something that I am really interested in is when you
said at the start that you would identified this problem you talked about being isolated as a
female founder and also in the design industry, generally. I know, Kelly, that that’s something
that Mob Happy, it was kind of similar genesis, is that fair?
[0:18:59.0] KM1: Yes, it was. I kind of noticed a couple of years ago that networking events or
interesting focused events that I’d attend that there are very,very few women there and it always
really surprised me. But I think I was more surprised that actually I personally didn’t know that
many other, kind of, women agency owners. Which is… I set out to kind of interview as many as
I could and that’s how Mob Happy came about.
A place to bring them together and you talked earlier about having, trying to find that support
network Kelly that you were looking for when you first started up. I guess that was what I was
looking for even not being at startup phase, I wanted that kind of support from other women
agency owners that sort of understood maybe some of the challenges that I was having
personally and with my agency and that was what Mob Happy was created for.
[0:19:51.6] BOK: How much of this idea was from you or how much was from the team and the
designers you work with?
[0:19:57.9] KM1: I have to say it has been very much a team project. Very much so the amount
of work that guys have put in it is astonishing and how passionate they all are is amazing. So I
would pretty much say there’s a team project too. Something that is very close to my heart,
having come up against those challenges myself and Kelly I know you mentioned about
networking events there. I mean out of interest I tend to count the male to female ratio many
times. And a lot of the time with myself or maybe one other person flying solo and at those networking
events I remember a friend of mine who actually went to a design event, he said he thought like
it was a Westlife concert, the boy band up on the stage and it just wasn’t in anyway an equal
split and I guess another thing that really brought it home to me was obviously when I set up of
the company, I found out there wasn’t many female business owners.
But further more in the last 10 months I had a baby and that was a whole new approach and a
whole steep learning curve and I didn’t really know how to go about it, I didn’t have anybody to
talk to, to be honest to say I know I run a business and go on a maternity leave or how do I get
home in time to put my baby to bed and get that balance and I just find that that even - made it
even bigger challenge for me and it happened to happening at the same time as Shape was
happening. So it made me realize how important what we are doing is I guess and how
beneficial it would be for me to be proud of a network of people to be able to throw my questions
at and ask for support.
[0:21:42.0] KM2: I completely understand that situation. Mine is similar in the sense that we’ve
been trying to have a baby for a really long time. So I was at the time juggling IVF appointments
and how do I do this big scary thing without letting it affect the kind of agency running life. So
different challenges but at the same challenge I totally understand.
[0:22:05.4] KM1: I mean I think a big thing for me Kelly is realizing that it is going to affect it and
trying to pretend that it is not going to was causing so much stress and it is just about being
more efficient with your time or also being kinder to yourself because you can’t do everything
and also, personally, I find working remotely a lot more so that I could be at home when it feels
sunny especially going back to work, I think – well I did actually take a meeting from the hospital
without going back to work two months in.
Being able to have that flexibility with is hugely important. And that was something that I hadn’t
experienced in any of the studio that I work in, the ability to work remotely in a design agency it
just doesn’t happen.
[0:22:45.1] KM2: But it’s nice, I guess you mentioned earlier about having a smaller team and I
think we also have a relatively small team and it is nice to have that flexibility that you can design your working day and everybody else’s in the right way that works for you. So it gives
you that certain level of flexibility I guess which is something that you really need at this point.
[0:23:07.8] KM1: The team have been so supportive I would not have done it without them.
They just fully understood the challenges. I guess another challenge for myself is when I
decided to have my baby in Ireland and the studio is in England and that was a whole other set
of challenges with me flying quite often or flying weekly. So yeah, we have just built that into the
way the studio works and the guys are used to working via Skype with me on many occasions.
They all huddle around the computer and also with the flexibility of flying and how they have to
work around my times quite often, but I think it makes us more efficient. But yeah, it just makes
me more efficient I guess really. There is not as much time for long lunches or meetings that
don’t really have to happen. So yeah I think it has been positive to the studio with what initially
was a huge challenge and something that I was very anxious about and being a really big
positive.
[0:24:05.3] BOK: That is something that I have heard about several times from people when I
guess they are facing some sort of challenge like that as the founder or leader in an agency and
then that actually turns out in the long term to have been a positive. So that is really interesting.
So you touched on efficiencies there and being able to make the flexibility and remote stuff
work. Do you think that was the reason when you say it finally became positive, do you think
that those efficiencies were the reason or was there other changes going on at the same time?
[0:24:34.8] KM1: Yeah there are actually there were other changes going on at the same time.
It is very much - finding out I was pregnant on that end in nine months’ time, I wasn’t going to be
able to be there kind of sped up the growth of the studio, a considerable amount. I was like right
it needs to be able to function without me so we need - at the time it had been I knew the
answer to everything. So ask Kelly, ask Kelly, ask Kelly and when Kelly is not going to be there,
you need really robust processes in place.
So it very much forced me in a good way to grow the studio quicker than I would have. So for
example, we now have Esme, who is our project compliant manager and she’s amazing but she
came in under that nobody had been in that role before her. So we have to try to work out what her role was. And yes, putting in more processes as well as to how we do things just made us a
much better studio and actually as a result a lot of the feedback we get back from our clients is
that the process has been delightful. Some have said.
But it hasn’t been painful and that they have known every step of the journey what the process
was going to be, what was expected of them even little details down until we have created
feedback sheets to give to our clients. So that we get really the succinct feedback, we have
processes for every type of service that we offer and a lot of the time that’s something that
larger agencies have and smaller agencies don’t have the time to do but we know that you are
not going to be there in a certain number of months you really need to put those processes in
place.
So that was another huge bounce across the studio room in terms of numbers as well. So yeah,
a lot of things have been going on in the past year.
[0:26:20.9] KM2: That sounds incredibly positive though Kelly, I love it. I would love to hear
what your vision is for Shape and what is the dream for it? We have talked a little bit about the
studio size and the challenge of having an amazing passion project that is also going to be quite
time consuming as well. How do you see it developing and do you see you briefing other studios
so that they can come on board and help you with this.
[0:26:48.8] KM1: Absolutely, I mean the world is our oyster in terms of where we should go. We
have comments from people saying, “Why does it have to be just design? Could it be music?
Could it be anything creative?” I think the answer to that is yes as well. Obviously we have to
start with what we know so we are starting with design, we are starting with the a small-ish
number of school in London, but we do see that growing.
We like to go further than just London next year, we’d like to expand the rest of the UK. We like
to do similar in Ireland and so in terms of growth we would love that and we would also love to
not just offer design. We’d love to offer other creative workshops. In terms of other studios and
then absolutely again, we’ve had a really great response to Shape and had a number of studios
offering placements, offering mentors. We just really I guess - this year is our test. We need to work on how we can and integrate them throughout the year and next year and how
we can make it work really. But ideally, we would love other studios to be involved, other people
and going back doing the workshops. Obviously there is a certain amount of vetting that we
need to do with it being in schools and students under 18. So we have to be quite careful as to
how we go about all of that but yes, the plan is that it would be bigger than White Bear
obviously.
[0:28:22.6] KM2: Something that is on the website that really resonated with me is that you
wrote a statement that you feel really grateful for the opportunities that you’ve had to study in
the creative subjects in school but you did mention something around parents and about how
sometimes it can take a little persuading when I am broaching the subject of work in the arts
with them. That really, really resonated with me because I can still remember back when I was
choosing what I was going to do.
And I went off and did a graphic design course and my dad was thinking what on earth is she –
is she just going to paint pictures all day, how are you going to add any money doing this. And it
was really I think even still when I set up my agency, he was still a little bit like why don’t you go
out and get a proper job. And sort of wondered what your experience with that had been and if
there is anything that you are thinking about in place that well help the parents more with these
workshops as well.
[0:29:19.9] MK1: I think the parents are hugely important in encouraging the students and I
mean yes, absolutely when I came home I said I wanted to do design, my dad was like, “What
you don’t want to be a doctor?” That was a bit of a running joke that month to month I wanted to
be anything beginning D, a designer, a doctor, dancer but my heart always knew I wanted to do
something creative. But again, the schools I think really been – not that they were not supportive
but the advice that I was given and in Ireland we did a leaving cert of the A levels and the advice
I was given is you won’t get a good leaving cert if you are focusing in on your portfolio to get into
Uni. So I was like okay, I don’t really know any alternatives so I focused very much on my
leaving cert results and I got a good leaving cert at A levels and then in terms of the courses
that I applied to I remember what the day I got my results. I wasn’t happy with the course that I
got. It wasn’t me because I wanted to do something creative and I remember my mom the day I got
my results driving me down to the local college that had a portfolio course and signing my name
up straight away. So yeah I straight away went into doing a portfolio course to get into Uni which
was something I really should have done while I was in school but I hadn’t been given that
support I guess.
I have to say my parents have been hugely supportive and while probably not always a 100%
sure about what I am doing and very supportive that I am enjoying it. But yeah, I remember my
dad saying, “Well you need to go to Trinity College in Dublin and that is a good college to go to”
-but they don’t do art there.
So there was a of educating my parents as to what I could - what career I could end up in but I
have to say that as I persisted they have been hugely supportive. The minute I did start the
course, I think they found it really interesting to be honest but yes I think there can be a lot to be
done to inform parents and educate them about doing a creative course- you will get a job and
there is a career path and there is a future – it is not a risk. So yes, I think a lot could be done
around that and that is something that Shape would like to help with as well.
[0:31:46.1] BOK: Something else that really stood out to me earlier was when you talked about
prizes and my first thought went to gadgets and money and things but actually what you are
describing around is much more valuable there.
You are talking about placements and mentoring and supplies. I thought that was huge because
it is more than just the workshop in itself and quite often that can one little experience and then
any positive impact of that might trickle off quite quickly. I assume that is a very deliberate
decision you made around these - this is how we can make it an ongoing benefit.
[0:32:19.0] KM1: I think for us it was very much about making studios accessible to students. I
mean when I was in school I didn’t know about design studios and what went on with them or
what they are like. So I think it is about giving students experiences which is something that we
really want to do. I remember one of my summers on work experience I did actually go to a
studio and it was when I was actually doing my portfolio. And the first piece of design that I did was designing a hairdresser’s price list that went up in the
window of the hairdresser’s and I just remember marching my mom and my dad, anybody who
would come with me to go down and look at the window at the hairdresser’s. I was so proud of it
and just those, it was that little experience with them is like okay this is something I actually
really enjoy doing. But yeah, by giving them an experience and we’ve had an overwhelming
response with studios offering placements.
Which we are delighted about obviously we’d always love more but yes, it becomes something
really real that we have offered now because more studios have offered placements, so happy
days.
[0:33:23.8] BOK: That is really wonderful and thanks so much Kelly. Unfortunately we are
starting to run out of time. So maybe one last thing you can leave us with is if anybody is
listening here who wants to find out more about White Bear or more about Shape and
potentially how to support Shape, where should we point them?
[0:33:38.5] KM1: Okay so White Bear, they can go www.whitebearstudio.co.uk and for Shape,
we currently have a holding page on the shapeinitiative.com however the website would be
going up in the coming weeks but anybody who is interested in getting involved can email us
[email protected] and we would love to hear from you. There are a few things we are
actually really in need of, if anybody is feeling like to get involved or feeling generous, we very
much still need prizes in terms of art supplies or vouchers. That is something that we are in
need of, we have got placements and we have mentors.
Another thing is at the end of the year, we are looking to hold our exhibition and we are looking
for a venue where we can hold this. We are right there with a lovely venue we would like to hold
an exhibition for a really great initiative, please do get in touch and finally, if there are any
printers, we would love to be able to print more material and assets for the students that are
going into the workshops, we have a limited supply of cards, actually very generously printed for
free by Trinity which we are delighted about but we would love to have more assets. So yes any
printers willing we would love to get in touch with them.
[0:35:07.4] BOK: Wonderful, thank you. We will put the links there in the shownotes on
happyporchradio.com, I should also mention that when we talk about next week, that is next week as of our recording, this will actually go live a week or two after your first workshop. So
maybe we can, anybody interested can get in touch and find out how that went as well.
[0:35:24.6] KM1: Yeah brilliant, absolutely. We are really looking forward to it.
[0:35:28.4] BOK: Awesome.
[0:35:28.7] KM2: Best of luck with it Kelly. I am so excited to find out how it goes.
[0:35:32.3] KM1: Well thank you so much. A little bit nervous but mostly excited.
[0:35:37.3] BOK: Excellent, thank you so much.
[0:35:39.6] KM1: Thanks for having me, I really appreciate it.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:35:47.8] BOK: You can get all the links and notes from this episode on happyporchradio.com
where you can also find out how to send us questions, feedback and get involved in the
conversation about this series.
If you enjoyed the show, please share with anyone else who might enjoy it too. Thanks for
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[END]