[INTRO]
[0:00:05.8] ANNOUNCER: Welcome back to Happy Porch Radio, the digital agency podcast for
progressive agency owners and web professionals.
Season Four is an exploration of diversity in our industry, especially gender diversity. This
season your host, Barry O’Kane, is joined by some wonderful cohosts for conversations with
agency leaders and diversity and inclusion experts.
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:32.2] BOK: Welcome back to Happy Porch Radio, Season Four. In this episode, I talk to
Peter Aitken who was organizer of the Amazing Scotland JS Conference and is now doing
something even more amazing in his spare time. It is called Global Diversity CFP Day and it’s
really cool. It’s all about supporting and encouraging anyone who is new to speaking at
conferences. Peter tells us all about it in our conversation.
Due to a scheduling mix-up in my part, I’m not joined by a cohost this episode and luckily, what
Peter shares mostly makes up for my error. Before we hear from Peter though, there is one
thing we didn’t discuss that I want to encourage you to check out. On scotlandjs.com, there are
four articles under the heading access articles. These four stories demonstrate how amazing it
can be when a conference focusses on being really inclusive and really caring.
They cover childcare at the conference, the inspiring 10 year old coder and how conferences an
community can change lives. Please do take a look.
Okay, now that you know you must go and read those, let’s meet Peter.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:41.8] PA: Hi, my name is Peter Aitken, I currently work at a company called Litmus where
I am a tech lead Scrum master, Rails developer, Jumpstart developer. In terms of community
work, I’m a recovering conference organizer and I’m also in the process of putting together
something called Global Diversity CFP Day in 2019.
[0:02:05.7] BOK: Excellent. We’re going to dig into all of that in more detail now. Just for the
listener, I was introduced to Peter by a mutual friend and really interesting topic to me about
events and organizing tech events, specifically and diversity and inclusion, that’s where this
conversation I hope fits into the broader arc of this season.
Peter, tell me a little bit about – let’s start at the beginning, let’s talk about what led to Scotland
JS, which is the conference that you ran for however many years in Scotland.
[0:02:35.6] PA: I was about seven editions we ran up to 2017 off, 2012 through 2018 and
actually, it started as a company event, one of my colleagues had an idea on a JavaScript
event, our director ran the Scottish Ruby conf and Mark this idea around the Java Script
conference. I was like employee number two, there was a couple of other folks commence
about four developers and Paul the director said, “Mark, you had this idea, you built a website,
you know, launch type page, that seems a really good thing to, we should go on.”
Mark thought, yeah, that’s great. Just kind of said this is Mark’s idea, we would run with it and
left them to it. A couple of months later, the same question get asked and nothing really
happened, I got a bit of a chat and he felt it was very important thing to happen to the
community but he just didn’t want to do it himself. I started picking a task off the Trello board
when there is no client work for myself. It just kind of snowballed and snowballed and then
about 2015, I took over the event personally rather than it being a company event and here we
are today.
[0:03:49.5] BOK: Accidentally stumbling into organizing.
[0:03:51.0] PA: Yeah, accidental conference organizer.
[0:03:55.9] BOK: I know you’re really interested in diversity and inclusion, is that something that
was completely independent from this sort of leading into Scotland JS? Or is it something that
was connected or grew out of it?
[0:04:06.3] PA: I think there’s a lot that I have learned from my partner Karen, at the same time,
I think a wider perspective, introduction to diversity issues and through the conferences is more
where my learning has happened. Our son has dyslexia and dyspraxia so we’re still learning
and becoming more aware about more neurotypical and non-neurotypical issues around that.
But yeah, I think it was I think it would be fair to say, when we started the conferences, it was
very much usual case of let’s get some speakers, let’s get a venue, yeah, party, go. That’s
great, and then I think it was in the second year, somebody - one of our speaker sort of put their
hand up and said, “I would really like this, my slot to be given to a woman.” The way that at that
point we started running the CFP and have done ever since is that we – anonymise, all the
applications and in terms of void and process, we open that up to tech holders. So the
audience decides who they want to see or the talks that they want to see and the subject
matter.
They’re effectively choosing. The discussions that I had with the speaker at the time was that
you know, it seems very honorable thing to be doing but if you want to drop out and that’s totally
up to yourself, however, we would need to approach the next feature on the list through the
audience to effectively decided for. That’s the way that I had approached things. Then, I think
let’s see, timeline wise, that would have been 2013, I don’t think too much had happened.
I think if we fast forward to 2015, we started to – I think that was the year that I took over,
personally. Responsibility wise, I think the only way to describe it is with the industry around the
event, the focus had moved towards diversity and it was an issue and that had been raised
since starting to be perfectly honest and we were – I was paying lip service to this idea and
didn’t have too much understanding and appreciation and we were offering speakers from under
represented marginalized groups, someone to reach 200 pounds, if we were successful in the
application process and were speakers and that would contributed to their travel and
accommodation.
[0:06:41.7] BOK: Just something, when you say lip service, do you mean that that process of
offering that little bit of funding - when you say lip service what do you mean?
[0:06:50.1] PA: Pretty much it was a token gesture to say look, we are doing something to be
more diverse. The people on the internet are not going to show, please leave this line. Joking
aside, we’re doing something but looking back, that’s how I would characterize it. But I can’t
quite remember if that was the intent of the thing.
On that very same year, we had two keynote speakers, Philip Grover had been speaking just
about all of the conferences, the JavaScript conferences so far and I invited him to be a keynote
and the other keynote speaker was Lina Reinhardt from Berlin. That’s pretty much - Lina’s talk
opened my eyes to what diversity, what privilege meant and you know, everyone’s experience is
not always equal.
Really, this is something that I should be put in a lot more effort into make people feel wanted
and welcomed and safe, as much as that is practically possible at these events and to basically
encourage people from underrepresented and marginalized groups to come and participate and
give them somewhere that wasn’t excluding and you know, the cis white hetro able bodied
males but the underrepresented marginalized people were welcome and wanted and valued.
That was a huge sort of eye opening moment for me in 2015 and that had a very big impact on
how I started to approach things going forward.
[0:08:31.0] BOK: Tell me a little bit about what – how that actually – when you say started to
approach things, that’s obviously a significant mind shift, although, I find it interesting that you’re
acknowledging maybe or sort of saying that looking back that some of the things before that
were lip service because I think so often, myself included, you feel like you’re doing something
that’s good enough, I’ve done it whereas rather than thinking about it as a core part of
everything you're doing.
I’m interested so you’ve got to, you’re thinking, okay, I’m organizing the next one, what does
that actually mean in terms of what you do for planning and what happens next?
[0:09:04.0] PA: A big thing about attracting, how do I want to say it? I really don’t like the word
digress, I prefer, I want this to be effective, you know? We want people to come and feel
included in terms of attendees. So how can we demonstrate to people who have been and that
haven’t attended before that this will be an inclusive event and not just one that talk about it.
Putting blogposts together and saying, aren’t we wonderful is something that I’ve always been
to scared of saying the wrong thing and they have always shied away from.
The amount of words and text that you’ll find in any of the conference websites beyond people’s
names and what they’re talking about is very small aside from the code of conduct. Let’s see, to
encourage people if they can see someone that’s on the stage that is going to – that looks like
them, that’s going to make them think, “Well, if they can do it then I can do it and this is
obviously a place that I can go to.”
At the same time, then you’ve got, you take a step further back from that and your planning
timeline. We need to attract a diverse group of people to apply to your conference proposal
process. You know, there is a world of experts in our field and any time that I’m speaking to
other event organizers, they say things like, “Well, how do we attract that, you know, a group of
– a diverse group of people to apply to our CFP.
Do you have invited speakers upfront? Usually the response is along the lines of, “Yes, we have
our sort of headline or a keynote name and a diverse name.” And yeah, I’m just like, what in the
name, why are these two things different? You know, those are people that are leading the field
that come from all backgrounds, whatever your field is. You know, you can find people that are
absolutely amazing and just also happen to come from an underrepresented and marginalized
background as well.
What I’ve done is pretty much for Scotland JS, we started inviting five speakers in the last
editions and that is our statement of intent. If we have two keynote speakers and three session
speakers that are invited upfront that are known, some are known globally, some are known
better in the UK. You know, being based Scotland for their technical competence but also
seeing that they are from underrepresented and marginalized backgrounds.
That’s not going to put any cis white able bodied male hetero off applying to speak but it
encourages people form underrepresented and marginalized backgrounds to apply to your CFP.
This is very, I forgot to gather all my stats together for you. You know, throughout the years, you
know, in terms of a diverse group of applicants to our CFP, as the conference is gaining
popularity, as more people applied. Actually, we never did any sort of strict diversity stats but in
terms of a sort of ignorant glance, at sort of gender and prior years, the number of women
applicants was incredibly low. Which it was usually above what my understanding as the sort of
proportion of women in tech to men in tech if we use, again, use a binary sort of agenda.
Over the piece, after 2015, due to the nature of how the CFP is voted for as by the audience, by
the ticket holders at that point, let’s look at it another way, if you invite all of your speakers, you
can pick and choose who each those people are. Your goal is presumably to provide technical
excellence and a diverse lineup and make sure everybody has a great time.
But if you have, let’s see, 17 slots that are being voted for, anonymized from your ticket holders
and the number of applicants from and underrepresented marginalized groups is somewhat
minimal would be I think at the 2015 I would say, maybe a bit 6%. I’m trying to think of if we’ve
saying it other than gaming the system.
The odds of anyone coming through from that background and being selected out of 17 of 200
applicants is incredibly low, 6%, you know? I came around the CFP for 2016 and the idea was
very early on, there’s no two ways about it. The CFP closed and four weeks, how can we make
this happen? Or attempt to make this happen. I woke up in the morning with this idea of well,
what if we had a sort of a time and a place. Actually, I should back track a little bit.
The years prior up to this point, I’d hosted a Google Hangout, come meet the organizer and
some previous speakers if you’re considering applying to speak. You know, you can ask us
some questions. You know, sometimes you know, some random folks that jumped in from
following the link on Twitter that had absolutely nothing to do with the event, knew nothing about
it and more young gentleman there for a laugh and a joke and quite literally trolling the power of
the internet, just doing the thing, which was interesting.
In 2015, Katie Fin had applied and had attended to hang out, I had no idea as to how valuable
or not this was. You know, these people that are looking to apply, do they apply, how they
applied and were they successful and taking to the stage and giving a talk. After the event, Katie
said, this was the thing that really pushed her or nudged her to actually put together her
proposal.
Prior to that events announce their CFP on the Twitters and she would see open and really
need to do that, really need to apply and they never got round to it, CFP for tomorrow, really
need to do that. It’s closed, I’ve gone through that experience many times myself. This sort of
sparked an idea in myself about a month before our 2016 CFP, is that 2016? Yeah, 2016 CFP
closed.
I said well, can we put together - you know, we all communicate online and the technologies
that we have are amazing, you know, like for video calls and text chat is brilliant but nothing
beats in person. I always like to think that I’ve been very sort of welcoming and you know, as an
organizer, I always, on the day of the event, as long as things are coming up, get myself out of
the front door and like shake hands and give them big welcome as they come in the door and
everybody knows, if they have a problem, they already know who I am and just to come straight
to and sort of like, just try and remove any sort of barriers that are there. There was numerous
sort of the things that we’ve done and just etry and break them barriers between the audience
and speakers, lots of stuff like that.
After having that bit of feedback from Katie, I wanted to have her host in person, event to
encourage people from underrepresented, marginalized groups to attend and to work with them,
I’m putting together the top proposal and I kind of figured, this needs to get done and really soon
so that we can – because our CFP closes in four weeks, we’ll pitch your date at being three
weeks from now, one of our main sponsors was, has an offices in Glasgow and Edinburgh and I
thought.
Well, they would be good people to speak to, see if we can borrow their office in the Saturday
afternoon. Tackle both cities. How can we sort of make sure there are educational material is
consistent across both of these? And at the same time, go to speak to my old boss in Dublin
and he’s like, that’s a great idea. It’s all right if we run one?
Really? Yeah. That’s quite a lot of folk in London. You know, we’ll get a lot of applications from
down south. It would be really good if you could host one down there and starting to some folks
at Code Bar and we got a venue, a future lair and all of a sudden, we had – a workshop that had
no sort of schedule or anything, it’s just – we are on board with this.
Katie jumped on board with one in Sheffield and it was Robin who was coming to speak and run
the Java Script up in Berlin who I already knew quite well. I said, you know, would you be
interested in doing this in Berlin? He said absolutely and yeah, everybody sort of got their
mentors and basically people who would be working with the attendees and we still needed this.
We effectively had across four countries, six different workshops all geared towards bringing
underrepresented and marginalized people together to apply to speak at Scotland JS or
Scotland CSS. How did this - it just snowballed, everybody keeps saying yes, this is amazing.
I’m asking people to give up their free time, a Saturday and put on a workshop and they have no
idea what’s going to be involved and we’ll work on that next week sort of thing. You know?
Everybody’s like yeah, fine. How is this happening?
And so, in the background I got speak into Raquel Valez whose very well-known in the
JavaScript community and Sarah May who is very well-known in the Ruby community and both
of them have vast speaking experience and also been in involved in applying to speak at places
and also reviewing and organizing conferences as well. So I got in touch with them and said, “Is
there any chance if the two of you could have a chat, record it and just chat about and give
advice to people who would be applying to speak?” Both were very happy to and jumped on
board.
And then so we had the idea of being this as a video and we could show it to attendees at every
workshop. So we have a very large start in terms of consistency of educational material, which
is a huge, huge start. By putting this on, everytime a city to came online. We are talking about in
terms of from the conference to ours and we want to promote that workshop that is happening.
That workshop is happening and they were one the same day but it was coming up very quickly
in three weeks’ time.
And so I think there was about twenty people the one in Berlin, somewhere in London and so I
think maybe they would count in some times five to ten people in the others and how many
people did we have apply that year? The numbers are usually 40 applicants each year and as a
result, we had three people from those workshops made it through in the final lineup that were
selected by the tech holders. Right, I thought this was amazing.
And at the same time, looking at diversity of the applicants that applied. Again, we weren’t
asking for anything specific. It was just ignorant of first name, ignorant binaries of guests as to
somebodies gender but things jumped from something like six percent up to 17% and of what
would look like a women’s name. And in the following year just to take the best of what felt like a
silly idea and did that really happen? Did everybody jump on board? Everybody kept saying yes.
Can we take this a step further? And so having had 2017 off, my intention after the conferences
in 2016 was what we’re doing in these workshops is we are demonstrating that we care. We are
not excluding anyone. But we are making it clear that who is it that we are trying to support and
there was nothing in the workshop that was specifically focused on JavaScript or CSS other
than it’s ScotlandJS putting this together and come along and apply your CFP.
Well this could apply to any and every tech community that’s going and there’s no reason it
needs to be restricted to my events. To Scotland Js, Scotland CSS. Why don’t we just open this
up to every tech community that you see everywhere, it’s just like, what? And you know my
thinking was, “Well if we can get the website together, it is one of these things where you buy
the domain name and then it’s serious. But yeah, all of it is just always felt like a silly idea and I
am not meaning to take away from it.
That is just that I don’t believe that it is happening and taking off in that regard and so pretty
much I got in touch with a number of people to run the conference. People are coming from
various places all over the world and said, “Would you be happy to run that workshop like what
we did last year?” But not really for us. Just for tech in general and get as much cross
community support happening from I don’t know, the Python community, the WordPress
community, the Ruby community.
Whomever, whatever to basically make this - rather than conferences saying, oh we reached
out to an app and asked people from other underrepresentative and marginalized groups to
apply to our CFP and we’ve also invited these people. In each community, you see there is a
group of people that are getting invited everywhere all the time and with the greatest respect,
Commented [U1]:
we don’t want to be burning people out and in the grand scheme of things, they are
underrepresented marginalized people.
Maybe the smaller proportion of what makes up tech but you know, we’re all the way, that is just
like a huge army and that’s like let’s awaken them up and let’s get them somewhere and again
just as we did before, demonstrate that that really is the key thing for me as we are
demonstrating that people are wanted, they are welcome. Their voice and perspective is valued
and we want to support them in going to apply and share their perspective in whatever
technology is it more so than our personal skills.
Or wherever it is that you want to talk about, we want to be supporting them and pushing them
forward in the tech community and giving, ideally, every event a way to a more diverse pool of
speakers. So having that together and got ourselves first base of maybe about a dozen
workshops lined up that we sort of then launched the website and let’s see, you know there was
other people that we knew that was signed up a little bit later on and then there was more than
half of the locations.
There were cities all over the world, literally. We have 53 cities signed up and more than half of
them, I had no idea who these people are. You know you always hear about the internet doing,
there is horrible things happening here and this algorithm has shown this picture or
misconstrued this and that is all horrible offensive stuff. That’s what to me for me personally
obviously is I stand out the example of the internet doing something amazing.
You know people were just jumping on board with Peter’s silly idea. I think the event in New
York that had a 100 people at it and so if we take 52 - if there’s 15 people each another start to
give itself a thousand attendees and there are people have been there at that and I’m still
thinking about it more than I am of it on to speaking events and conferences.
[0:25:52.6] BOK: I can hear it in your voice that is sort of, “Wow this is big.” You know? So that
ran in February 2018, February last year.
[0:25:59.0] PA: Yes and it had a huge impact on the people that applied to Scotland JS and
Scotland CSS. The sway went from what actually, the number of people overall that apply
jumped from the early 200s in terms of the total number of applications that we got from the
Java Script conference to 400. It doubled.
And in terms of the percentage, we went from what I think was in 2016 about 17%. 35 people
that I was guessing was more from an underrepresented group to I think it was 33, I am sure or
35% of the 400 applicants. So this was a huge, huge jump that a third of our applicants who
were coming from a diverse background and the way that we were able to identify that and the
interesting thing being that the numbers actually lower. We were still offering the travel and
accommodation support specifically for people who are from underrepresented marginalized
groups but you know we have obviously increased that so that it is not just lip service.
It will ideally it will support people getting from anywhere in Europe and that people are coming
from further afield, we would look at that at the time but part of your CFP proposal was to let us
know if you were from an underrepresented or marginalized background and need financial
assistance. I can’t remember the exact number but yeah, we’ll say a third of our applicants had
said yes and there is plenty of when it came time for me to start inviting people and turn
anonymization off there was plenty of other people that I know that are from an
underrepresented marginalized background that didn’t require the financial assistance that had
applied.
So that was the lowball number, so yeah we went from 17% of 200 people to 33 of 400, which is
huge. I would challenge any event aside from UltaCon or WeRise or the Women Who Code
conference. I’d challenge any other event to see if their figures are anywhere that. Yeah, it really
all comes down as that we have demonstrated that we care and that we are willing to put
ourselves out or put myself out and sort of trying make friends with as many people who are
then meant to spread this as far and wide as possible and you know obviously, yeah people
appreciate that.
[0:28:37.5] BOK: Yeah, that is really cool and just to bring that back then up today. So just like
you mentioned, the website that you mentioned is globaldiversitycfpday.com.
[0:28:48.7] PA: Yeah, www.globaldiversitycfpday.com, yeah.
[0:28:50.7] BOK: So we’ll put that in the Shownotes for anybody on but obviously at times it is
amazing and really good success. So it is happening again this year. Tell me a little bit about
that?
[0:28:58.6] PA: Yes this year on second of March, Saturday, worldwide, we would be doing the
same event again. We currently have just about under two months to go. If anybody wants to
bring a workshop to their city, you can sign up to do that. We will provide all educational
materials that you need to run a workshop. Really all folks need to do is gather a team of
mentors together who can work with attendees on the proposal and to help identify what the
answer to what is a common sort of question, what should I talk about.
And go over the proposal and just instruct the press of them and feedback and yeah, a lot of it is
about boosting confidence. Because a lot of people feel that I shouldn’t be here, I don’t deserve
to be here and that’s exactly what we are trying to overcome with these workshops. And so we
are very happy for folks to sign up and organize the workshop and please take a look at the
website there. Yes last I checked last night we had 54 cities lined up so that is one more than
last year and then counting I am hoping we’ll have a good few more come the time, yeah I am
looking forward to it.
I think that the big difference this year is we are going to try and focus more on interactive
aspects of the workshop and so giving organizers basically a tool kit of here is a whole load of
options as to things that you can do and letting them build their own feedback and things that
work well and what didn’t and we can just improve the process going forward.
[0:30:45.4] BOK: And so to - you are not doing Scotland JS anymore. So I am wondering if this
is something that you have hooked up to other events or is it just literally anybody’s interested in
anything?
[0:30:56.2] PA: It’s not. There is no association with any other specific event. There are those
sponsors for what we do. Everything needs to be free for the attendees, the organizers - the
local organizers needs to find the space and a venue and I guess WiFi and need a screen and
audio and they are good to go.
There are some of the larger browser companies and have lots of people that do lots of
speaking who are looking to help to make more events happen. But there is no big association
sponsorship conference involved. This is very much tech ways and the cross pollination of ideas
and building us a community of newbie speakers is more our aim and that people have come in
and said, “Oh can I use this to run a workshop for our specific community?” On the day.
And my response being, “That sounds great but why do we want to exclude all the other
communities,” and that’s like can we stick with the original concept here because it is all about
inclusion. Why would be exclude based on technology you know? Yeah I never quite grasped
that.
[0:32:15.5] BOK: And even for conferences that are focused on a specific technology, some of
the most enjoyable and memorable talks I have been to have been from people who are slightly
outside the community.
[0:32:23.2] PA: Oh yeah, totally but you know, this is can we get that cross pollination
happening and say, “Oh here is the technology we offer, where your knowledge actually applies
to and you may not have considered that and you might want to go there.” Well actually last
year we know that that’s happened and because there was like a set of speaking group started
in Bristol, there was one in Detroit and there was one in San Francisco that all of them picked
up from where we left off.
To try and help support and push people forward with their applications and see how they’re
going on and support them further, which is great. So those little pockets of communities of
already started and yeah, ideally we can encourage that more and just keep people together.
[0:33:12.7] BOK: Really thanks for sharing that story and the success of this. It’s cool and really
exciting and now I am thinking of people I want to share, to encourage hopefully maybe attend
one of them.
So you left me on tender hooks a little bit earlier in the conversation when you said we would
come back to when it goes wrong thing.
[0:33:28.0] PA: Oh right, yeah. So this is more around the language. If you take a scenario,
really I suppose that there is having said something inappropriate or exclusionary and being
completely, blissfully unaware and I suppose if someone can make you aware, ideally in a
scenario where you are not going to be feeling shamed in a group of people or in front of a
group of people because you can really actually think about it and understand where they are
coming from and how it applies.
And then if you realize that, hey, I was in the wrong and you can then take the information back
to the group that you are talking to and say, “Well, actually this person was just explainied to me
that what I said was inappropriate and here’s why and sorry.” Yeah, you know it is just that. I
have apologized for what I have done and I understand why and yeah, we can move on and the
reception that the people who have been excluded they take generally as the, “Ah, right, great.”
So you were out of line before but you know you said sorry, you understand and that actually
can bring people closer together, you know? But I suppose there’s a whole set of thing about
providing feedback and you could go into that for hours as well.
[0:34:43.4] BOK: Yeah, exactly. That is another massive matter, okay. Brilliant, thanks and so
unfortunately we are starting to run out of time, which is a bit of shame because I love to chat
more about this but just as a final question. So CFP that is coming up in March, is the vision to
keep doing this or are you looking to expand it or grow it or what’s the vision? What’s next?
[0:35:01.2] PA: We’ve already, ideally grow as the aim. I suppose really if this event isn’t
happening in your location, you could make it happen. We would be trying to make that as easy
as possible. If you are a conference organizer and you talk a lot about diversity and you care a
lot about diversity and you don’t seem to be seeing those results. This is a way that you can
demonstrate that you are willing to put yourself out there and make yourself uncomfortable.
And do additional work as much as I very much appreciate that an organizer’s work is never
done and here I am suggesting you do more but yeah, we aim to make that as straightforward
as possible for anyone and we will be contacting more people but if anyone wants to get about
that, chat about this, get involved, please do. The Twitter handle is @gdcfpd, which is really
catchy and easy to mistype, you know? But yeah, we’re aiming to grow as wide as possible.
The issue in tech and society in general isn’t something that is going to be solved overnight or
even in a couple of years. So we need to be keeping this going for a good while I would suggest
and even by time my son’s old enough if he was in a field anything like tech, actually he’d be
better at chatting than I would be. He would start talking about it, it’s like calling people out for
sexism, racism, transphobia, he is an absolute star.
He has no fear when it comes to this, which is brilliant, while as adults we make a bit talk and
it’s an okay time to buy in and tell somebody that are spoken out at time. It is absolutely brilliant
to see the folks don’t have a response is just like, “Oh you’re right.” Which is brilliant, yeah.
[0:36:56.2] BOK: Yeah, it’s very cool. So brilliant, thank you so much for sharing all of that. Just
a reminder, so it’s globaldiversitycfpday.com and @gdcfpday on Twitter and I will put those both
in the show notes at happyporchradio.com for anybody who is listening.
Thanks Peter, I really appreciate your time today. It was really good.
[0:37:13.0] PA: Well it was a pleasure to speak to you Barry, thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:37:20.0] BOK: You can get all the links and notes from this episode on happyporchradio.com
where you can also find out how to send us questions, feedback and get involved in the
conversation about this series.
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[END]