[INTRO]
[0:00:05.8] ANNOUNCER: Welcome back to Happy Porch Radio. The digital agency podcast
for progressive agency owners and web professionals.
Season four is an exploration of diversity in our industry. Especially gender diversity. This
season, your host, Barry O’Kane is joined by some wonderful cohosts. For conversations with
agency leaders and diversity and inclusion experts.
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:32.1] BOK: Welcome back. In this episode, Erica and I speak to Carole Rennie Logan.
Carole is development team lead at the Glasgow based agency, Equator. In this conversation,
Carole talks about how being from a different social or economic background can be a
challenge and how we in the industry need to have the empathy and the awareness to turn that
challenge into opportunity.
We also talk about gender diversity and the Umbraco community, how organizing events is hard
and the importance of role models. Now, Carole is heavily involved in the local tech scene. She
organizes two meetups, helps organize local conferences and has spoken at several Umbraco
events across Europe.
In 2018, she was awarded Inspirational Woman of the Year at the Scotland Women in Tech
Awards. Carole is herself very much a role model. She is incredibly modest and not extroverted.
Describing herself as a little nervous in many group situations. It is really interesting to hear her
talk about the journey she’s taken to get to this point and encouraging others to be role models
without hiding how hard that can be at times.
Let’s meet Carole.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:44.7] CRL: Hi, I’m Carole Logan, a developer based in Glasgow. I am a development
team lead at agency called Equator. I also help run a couple of local meetups including Ladies
of Code, kind of what it sounds like, for ladies who code.
[0:02:01.4] BOK: Awesome, welcome to the show and also joining us is Erica. Hi Erica again.
[0:02:06.2] EQ: Hello again, awesome to be here -
[0:02:07.8] CRL: Hi Erica.
[0:02:09.0] EQ: To talk with you both.
[0:02:10.8] BOK: Carole, I invited you on to the show for a couple of reasons but one of them
is you messaged me talking a bit, we had a brief conversation about diversity of background as
in the childhood and growth and where you came from is really important aspect or something
that you particularly think it’s important.
Can you tell me a little bit about why that is or you sort of mentioned about something about
your experiences?
[0:02:34.0] CRL: Yes, I’m from a kind of traditionally working class background, in Glasgow,
there is kind of a working class city I guess you could probably say historically. I definitely know
in tech or even just in going to university that one of the things I noticed most was that I was
different from my background, not just my gender in a computing science classroom, that I
sounded different from everyone else, I had a different experience from most of the other people
in my class.
It wasn’t really something I had ever considered thankfully, I managed to grow up not really
realizing that no class was really a thing. Obviously I knew that there were rich folk and there
were less rich folk but it didn’t really occurred to me that going to university or trying to go out
and get a job in what I enjoyed which was tech, there would be such a kind of class divide. I
hate calling it working class and things like that, but there is and I don’t really think it’s spoken about quite as much as the other issues in tech like you know, gender diversity or race and
everything like that.
[0:03:40.4] BOK: That really struck me when we were chatting about it, talking about, I don’t
know if you said this but somebody said the you’re first person in their family to go to sort of
university with that level of education and then go on to this type of career.
[0:03:50.9] CRL: Yeah, I think I was the first woman in one side of the family and I think of it
probably the first to do a science, to do a stem subject if you want to call it that. Yeah, but it
didn’t occur to me until now I’m kind of older and having and reflecting back because I think that
pressure might have been quite a lot - I’m really lucky and just doesn’t feel the pressure my
family were great and it never really occurred to me until I kind of taken a step back now that I’m
older and realized, wow, that was quite a big deal.
[0:04:22.5] BOK: Yeah, have much of an impact did that have? You said you didn’t really
realize but when you were in the university it started to sink in? Or did it actually have an
impact?
[0:04:29.6] CRL: Yeah, I’ve got a high pitched east end of Glasgow accent where most of the
people who were guys that didn’t sound like me from the high pitched a voice but even just you
know, I don’t know of other cities but you can definitely tell in Glasgow, someone’s background
pretty much by how they sound.
Yeah, I was quite really conscious of when you’re raising your hand in class and you want to
answer a question, you do get conscious if you sound different, there’s already the physical
differences of being one of probably 10 or so women in a computer science class of hundreds.
But there’s just that extra thing of I guess, bit of background that I went to what is thought of as
the posh university, I guess, in Glasgow so there probably was that - a lot of it was probably in
my own head, I was aware of being a working class kid in this posh university, in this kind of
grand surroundings.
But it was definitely something I noticed once I was there, that had I considered beforehand,
maybe would have put me off, I don’t know but luckily, it didn’t.
[0:05:31.0] BOK: Erica, is that – I’m laughing when Carole says certain things about Glasgow
because it’s definitely the caricature of Glasgow of being the working class city. So is that your
experience, do you think that’s very British sort of view point or is a broader topic there?
[0:05:46.0] EQ: That is a really a question that I’m not sure I know how to answer either
because my parents went to college, both of them, for me, it was very natural to follow in those
footsteps, this is not something I have ever even considered because I just think, “Of course I’m
going to go to university,” and I went to – well, the first university I went to was in the south so I
guess I did stand out accent wise, I didn’t last very long there, I didn’t like how I was treated so I
came back to the west coast.
I guess maybe thinking through that, maybe I do relate in some ways of just feeling out of place,
you clearly handled it better because you stuck with it. I mean, I did stick with university but just
not my first one I went to but yeah, I mean, I’ve actually never thought of that inn those terms
before, interesting perspective.
I also went to the University of Glasgow as well for my masters. I can relate to the accents I
guess. I was able to learn how to pick out the different regions of the cities but it’s interesting in
a small scale versus like a full country like the US and the different accents, we have to go a
little further a field for that.
[0:06:49.6] CRL: Yeah.
[0:06:50.1] BOK: I mean, do you think this is something that you know, in a broader
conversation around in this season of the podcast we’re having this very broad conversation
about diversity and talking about different topics, ranging from gender and diversity and
inclusion, race and LGBT and all these different labels, I guess, or identities, do you think that
when we talk about where somebody’s from, it’s a case of kind of limited opportunities for
people with different backgrounds or is it a case of thinking about it from the – like the
employer’s of the general point education point of view, just trying to encourage people to come
and be involved?
[0:07:25.7] CRL: I think there is a bit - like the lack of women in tech, I think there are several
sides of it, there is a pipeline thing where we need kids from different backgrounds to realize
that this is a place for them that they are welcome, but also that also their talent is needed, you
know?
There’s such a, they are saying we’re going to have a talent gap in tech, we’re not going to have
enough people to fulfill all these jobs and there’s this whole pool of people that you know, are
just being missed out on or have the potential to be missed out on because they don’t realize
that the opportunity is there for them. This is something that they’re able to do and it’s just kind
of, there’s that side of things, there’s the getting in to schools and getting kids to realize hey, this
is a job for you.
There’s right through to employment as well. Where it’s natural, there are loads of studies and
stuff where people tend to employ people like themselves and it’s just like with any kind of
diversity, taking a step back and trying and making a conscious decision to not just hire people
from your friend group or your social group that you have. Or if you’ve hired someone, they
probably know someone that went to the same university as them or you know, they grew up
with or things like that and it’s taking the hard route because it’s easy to you know, to trust your
kind of group and know that if they’re recommending someone, they must be okay and you
know, there’s that kind of trust element to it.
But trying to hire from different places, even if it is a bit harder and that will help with all kinds of
diversity.
[0:08:55.4] EQ: It is interesting that you say that you say that from a friend group perspective
because I found as an adult in general, you get your job by networking. It’s all about who you
know so getting yourselves in those situations or friends or friends of friends and yeah, I guess.
So trying to think about hiring from the standpoint of maybe not relying on those
recommendations so much but that’s more of an effort I guess when you’re hiring and trying to
find new ways to go about it instead of throwing out that old school ways that we tend to rely on
now.
[0:09:25.9] CRL: Yeah, I think, I do understand like we’re probably all guilty of it, you hire
people like yourself or you can see people like yourself in the job because you’re doing it, right?
It’s natural, it’s why there is this lack of diversity as people tend to hire people like themselves
and that’s why a lot of Silicon Valley has looked the way it’s looked and sounded the way it
sounded for so many years.
That kind of goes from Silicon Valley through to the rest of the tech industry. It is hard, but if
people want to make a real difference and it’s not just doing the right thing, it’s at the end of the
day will help your business because there aren’t enough programmers out there or you know,
all the jobs that are native testers, UX, that kind of thing. It’s really good for your business
rather than just the right thing to do.
[0:10:13.5] BOK: Carole, did you have people, you said you sort of didn’t think about it, you just
went to university, did you have people encouraging you and supporting you through that
process and you obviously weren’t scared away from working in the industry or anything even
as a minority?
[0:10:25.6] CRL: Yeah, to be honest, I lived in a little bubble and my family were like so
supportive and I was really lucky to see that my mom and my aunt both went to - so college and
university are quite different here, you get kind of different levels of qualification, I guess, I know
in America, I think you get degrees at college too Erica, is that right?
[0:10:46.5] EQ: Yeah, we kind of use them interchangeably.
[0:10:49.2] CRL: To my mom and my aunt, both went to college. When I was young, my mom
actually went after having me, kind of after I went to university and stuff, she went to college and
I think seeing them do that was just kind of normalized it for me, you know? We kind of – I saw
them going and getting an education and then go to work and there were just – where we do
actually, I went to college when I was three because I went to the nursery at college.
Yeah, I think it normalized it and I was really – didn’t see that there was an issue to be honest, I
was just able to grow up and this wee bubble that I was a girl but I can do whatever my brother
and my cousins can do.
I was completely lucky that way. I think that I was given the support and everything that I need
you to get my qualifications at school and I was encouraged to do that and to take any time I
needed to study and everything like that and to apply for university even though as much as
education’s free here in Scotland, there are cost implications of having to look after me until I’m,
what, 21, 22 when I graduate that again, being young, you don’t really think about but you know,
that must have been quite a challenge for my parents but they never made it feel like that to me
and I think that I had that privilege that maybe be a little of people from my background that
didn’t have which I’m really lucky and really grateful for.
[0:12:09.3] BOK: Yeah, not my experience but my observation is that there is a little bit of - in
some environments when we talk about background or area or your sort of social background
that sometimes there’s a little bit of – you know, that’s too good for us kind of feeling. I get that I
have this thing about Scotland and Ireland as well, as I don’t have a bit of a chip on our shoulder
sometimes and being a bit negative about stuff like that.
Is that a fair thing to think that I’ve observed?
[0:12:34.0] CRL: Yeah, there is a kind of ‘us and them’ type of thing. I do think there’s definitely
– even the area of the city that the university I attended is in, is like the posh side of town and I
moved to the poor side of town to go to Uni. This is mostly banter, people were mostly like, just
have a joke like you think you’re posh now, kind of thing.
But there definitely - it’s not that there’s an ambition issue, it’s sometimes people might just not
know that it’s for them, I think. I think that’s the importance of role models and it’s kind of like
why I like to talk about it. I’m not actually an outgoing person or extroverted person but you can
talk about it and people can see people like them and you know, doing jobs like they might want
to do but just don’t realize that it is a possibility for them or that the tech that they use every day
actually, that’s a really cool job rather than you know, wherever –
People will just go into what jobs they know, again, people get people they know jobs so you
know all your uncle can get you a job in this place or your aunt can get you a job in this place
and people do tend to go naturally again, it’s what you see growing up, that’s a good job, I’ll go
into that and it’s just broadening what jobs people can see that are out there for them.
[0:13:48.1] BOK: Have you had the similar experience then since leaving university and going
on and through the rest of your career?
[0:13:54.0] CRL: I do joke every now and then and I’m like, whenever my east end accent
comes out, I’m from the east end of Glasgow, I do have a bit of a laugh about it and stuff but
there are sometimes you do still feel like, that you are a bit different or just even talking to
people about their experiences or things that they did as a kid or whatever. Again, I don’t feel
that I kind of missed out on anything. I would absolutely not change my upbringing or
background at all because it’s made me who I am and my family are amazing. But there are
some things people will talk about experiences that I’m just like, “We’re from different worlds,”
you know?
I think even in general, in tech, if there aren’t enough people that have experienced different
things, it’s the same as with anything when we talk about diversity. We’re building the internet or
apps or whatever for everyone. So when you’re talking about expectations of users or when you
do sometimes hear people making generalizations of different types of users, you know, just like
you don’t act like you can tell when people have an experience to or they make assumptions
about people from working class backgrounds or things like that.
I don’t think it’s as much noticeable as it was when I was at university or maybe I am quite
conscious of the fact that I am probably a bit distant from being working class now. I hate using
that term but you know what? I mean, that, maybe I’m just not noticing it as much now because
I’ve not been in that background for like, I moved out 10 years ago to a different part of the city.
Maybe my experience is distant from that now and I’m quite conscious of that.
[0:15:27.8] BOK: Yeah, but it’s interesting that you’re saying in working in the team there and
sort of being – even just being aware of the differences, being aware when people are you
know, having discussions as you say around things and making assumptions about a certain
background or certain people. Is that something that you found has been easy to kind of
challenge or talk about in the work place? Or is that - those kinds of conversations kind of
ignored or brushed or aside?
[0:15:54.3] CRL: Not so much in the workplace I think. I’ve never really experienced it; I’ve
never felt uncomfortable or anything. It’s even just sometimes even you see on Twitter. People
talking about, you couldn’t possibly develop on a laptop that was you know, the prices that
people pay for laptops and they talk about like, well, which laptop should I get and like every
single one that’s recommended is like over a thousand pounds for example.
You couldn’t possibly write on that wee thing. Well, you could actually – people want the better
laptops and of course, there are better performance and everything like that but there’s even
just this bar to even get entity because I’ve got this rubbish little laptop then I couldn’t be a real
developer or things like that.
I think there’s a lack of empathy, I don’t think it’s that people do it on purpose, they just don’t
think and if it’s not your background or you’re in a job where you’re privileged enough to be able
to spend, you know, over a thousand pounds on a laptop and not really think about it and
always recommend that one to people that are – you know, people are getting started in tech or
things like that.
It’s just stopping and thinking that actually is that person in the position to do that and recognize
that you are really like, I know people roll their eyes at the word privilege but you are in a really
good job that you can afford that and not everyone is quite there. Again yeah, everything just
comes down to empathy really and just thinking about how other people, what position they
might be in.
[0:17:21.5] EQ: Yeah, I think people in the tech industry definitely use their tech as a status
symbol. That is very true, right. I think the entry level is definitely lower than it is portrayed as in
terms of you can do a lot with a cheap machine or possibly even at a community center or a
library machine or something like that. There are still things that you can do to learn and grow in
your craft.
[0:17:43.9] BOK: To change, I guess, to change topic very slightly, Carole you mentioned that
you help organize two different meetups and actually a number of other events in Scotland.
Ladies of Code and The Umbraco Meetup or basically why do you do that? Why do you give up
all your spare time for these things?
[0:18:00.7] CRL: It’s not quite almost spare time although my husband may disagree with me
on that one. I just enjoy it. I am not a naturally sociable person, kind of going out to the pub and
stuff isn’t really my idea of fun. It makes me a bit nervous but I found meetups sort of a really
good way to meet other people that are interested in the same things as you. To learn was the
original reason that I went to meetups and when I saw there was this kind of gap of there is a lot
of women in tech meet ups but they aren’t always for developers.
Generally there is a lot talking about the challenges or what we can do to get more women in
tech or what can we do to make our self heard and shatter the glass ceiling, et cetera. But there
weren’t a lot for just, hey we’re women and we want to talk about tech and the environment
where we feel comfortable. And then I saw there was this group of Ladies of Code and I go in
touched and said, “Hey I’d like to get involved in the Glasgow meet up.”
And there I am and the Umbraco meet up there was one in Glasgow when I first started learning
Umbraco like four years ago or something but it wasn’t regular and it disappeared for a good
while and I found myself at a conference in Denmark and some guy called Barry was like, “Hey
you should totally start up the Glasgow meet up again.” So we did, didn’t we?
[0:19:20.9] BOK: Yeah and that’s been great. Now I know you don’t like making a fuss about
this but I think it is quite a big deal and worth touching that you - tell me what the award was that
you won this year.
[0:19:30.8] CRL: I won Scottish Woman in Tech Award for like Woman of the Year. I think it
was an Inspirational of Woman of the Year which makes me a bit awkward saying out loud but
yeah, I guess for being a role model and stuff. Yeah I was really lucky to have been nominated
by people in the tech community which was really nice and the Ladies of Code have got
ourselves this really lovely community of people that have - our meet ups has been going for
two years now.
And it is just a really supportive group that I hadn’t seen a lot of the women at regular meet ups
but they come regularly to Ladies of Code. So whenever people challenge me like, “You know
Glasgow’s got loads of meet ups, you know aren’t you just dividing yourself, you are taking
yourselves out to a separate meet up and stuff?” But seeing people come along, get involved
and there’s been so many people that have gradually found their confidence to give a talk or to
make that jump into switching careers.
And things like that it makes the giving up your free time worth it when you can see that it is
helping other people. And it is just often to have our group to go to and I’m totally selfish, I
wanted the group, a group of woman that are interested in code and I’ve got a group of friends
and that’s somehow I got an award for that.
[0:20:46.3] BOK: Yeah, I mean that is obviously really cool. The award I think is a recognition of
that kind of thing and so it is not something to be backward about but the thing that I think is
especially cool about that Carole is that you as a very genuine person in saying you are just
doing this. To tie that back to the need for role models and how, I don’t want to say relatively
easy but how possible it is to just by sort of stepping out of your comfort zone a little bit and
doing the kind of things that you’ve been doing, which you say has also been fun, to become
that role model and help people sort of overcome some of those boundaries and so full respect
and huge line of credit to you for doing that.
[0:21:23.3] CRL: Thank you and I think we had the chat before about this and if you can’t see it,
you can’t be it. It is like this cheesy quote that I use all the time to talk about women in tech and
it is true. I mean with that my first Umbraco conference one of the first talks I saw was Erica and
I am not just saying that because you are here Erica but it was like a woman speaker in a room
full of men, mostly, and a few of us and you were just amazing.
I was just like, “She’s like totally kicking butt and just saying it like it is.” and there was a talk
about inclusion and diversity and I was like, “This girl is amazing.” And I think you had a flowery
dress on while you were doing it and I was just like yeah, a real life version of you know that
raise hands emoji that I use all the time, yeah and role models are important and that was you
Erica and yeah, they are really, really important.
[0:22:13.7] EQ: That was one of the most nerve racking talks I think I have ever given because
it was a very sensitive subject. In turn found you to be an inspirational as well because you were
one of the first to speak out and say, “I am glad Umbraco is addressing this issue.” Because it
does. It needs to be talked about. It needs to be talked about often. So it keeps moving forward
in the right direction.
[0:22:34.9] BOK: So let’s talk a little bit about that. I mean for those listening, the three of us are
involved or have in Umbraco the open source CMS and the community quite a lot in different
ways and what is and I think it is quite a good example of this topic and I think hopefully an
interesting topic to us. Is that something that you have seen or how big a challenge is that been
for both of you within the Umbraco community and what changes have you seen over the
years?
[0:23:01.2] CRL: So Erica, you’ve been around Umbraco a little bit longer than me so you have
probably seen a much bigger change I imagine?
[0:23:08.7] EQ: I have. In terms of numbers of women getting involved I have. So I got involved
in Umbraco, I think my first conference was in 2012, where I was one of maybe five women and
being an introvert myself it was intimidating. I mean I would have been a wallflower anyway
because it was 400 plus people and no matter what your gender is or your skin color or your
race or your religion, like I just find that intimidating but I kept going back for some reason.
And I sort of found my niche in the community but I loved seeing over the last seven, eight years
how many women are coming. Particularly in the last I would say two to three years, seeing that
number grow and I know part of my giving a talk a couple of years ago, that Carole referred to
was I mean they asked me to do that. I had given one at the regional US conference on that
same year although slightly different and they asked me to kind of reprise it and gear it more
towards women in the community.
Because they were again at a loss themselves on how to grow women involvement. So they
have been making strides to that and it is a long journey. Nothing is going to happen overnight
and they have made some mistakes quite a few along the way but we all do. But just seeing that
number is really encouraging and also seeing the number, neither one of you have been into the
US conference but I think that we probably hold the record for percentage wise of women
attending.
But seeing that involvement I am hoping that’s going to translate over to the international ones
too, if we can bring more women from the US to Codegarden even. So when people see those
pictures they get inspired and maybe they will attend as well. And then filling in those speaker
gaps as well and getting more women to speak. It is just the little things that kind of encourage
the community to grow that’s what I have seen in the last several years that I have been
involved.
[0:25:00.6] CRL: Yeah, so three years ago was my first Codegarden and I actually got my ticket
through the giveaway tickets to women. I think it was International Women’s Day and I probably
wouldn’t have went without that and I am saying that when companies at least make attempt to
welcome women and it is just not a token, oh here’s some free tickets, it actually can make a
real difference. Like I think a lot of the things that have happened in my career since getting and
that simple thing as a free ticket.
You know I have never travelled on my own. I have went all the way to Demark. I went to this
conference for three whole days on my own and that might sound a bit pathetic but I have just
have never done that before and could have gotten that ticket really made the difference and
made me go and it turned into me speaking at the conference the next year, being lucky enough
to get the MVP Award and then being involved in the community, being asked to be on a
podcast and talk to you guys.
Yeah it is little gestures can make such a difference and when people say that are people that
have varied opinions on free tickets for people on minority groups but they make such a
difference or they can make such a difference. When the people arrive at the conference, they
are welcomed and encouraged and treated like they belong and things like that.
[0:26:24.9] EQ: I think my ticket was free the first year I went as well and I agree. I definitely
helps get your foot in the door.
[0:26:31.3] BOK: So there is a couple of other things I wanted to ask you about Carole. One is -
so you are also involved in different ways in organizing some of the Scottish conferences. I think
DDD is that right?
[0:26:41.2] CRL: Yeah.
[0:26:41.8] BOK: Is there anything that you observed from those types of events in terms of
encouraging people who maybe don’t feel confident to come to these things or to have more
people included and represented there?
[0:26:53.2] CRL: I learned that as an organizer that diversity is hard. It is so hard. I am the first
person to be sassy on Twitter and be like, ‘What’s the deal with your speakers list?” You know
why is it all guys, why is it all white guys and yeah it is hard. If getting women to, so DDD is
generally people submit a proposal and people vote on them and things like that but just getting
women to I think to be honest the way that the DDD proposals are set up would put me off as a
woman from submitting it because people vote for it. It is about for popularity contest.
So if we do it again, I have thoughts on what we can do to hopefully help that, but it is hard. It is
really hard although we did find that the talks submitted by women were actually really highly
devoted for. And again, there is different reasons why women is more likely to put to think about
it more than to actually put so much effort into putting themselves out there that you know they
end up being ranked higher or things like that.
But yeah, that is the one of the biggest things I noticed is that it was hard to get female
speakers. I find that really interesting so we were at a conference recently, the one you were at
as well actually, Barry, and it doesn’t need to be that many women there for people to go, “This
is a really a good gender balance isn’t it?” And so it was like well no, it is still like 15% but there
are a few of us if that’s what you mean.
But yeah, it’s hard. It’s what I realized and it’s going to make me have some empathy for other
conference organizers that is difficult it shouldn’t stop me from trying.
[0:28:26.5] BOK: And one thing when we were talking about Umbraco, we had a brief chat
before we started recording about how The 24 Days In, which is series of articles every
December written by the community like different aspects of Umbraco. And you had an
interesting observation there but sort of almost half way through this year in the middle of
December and so far, there is actually been more females authors on that one than male.
[0:28:47.4] CRL: I think as of today there is one more. But yeah, this maybe not even another
female developer friend that pointed out to. It was like, “Oh I didn’t even notice that.” But I am
obviously quite conscious of these things. It’s like, “Oh that’s really cool.” And I think having
more women helps because you feel less like the talking women. I don’t know if you think that
too Erica. There are times where I have been asked to speak at a conference and I’ve just
assumed that I am not actually that good.
And they just want me because they need a woman on their speaker’s list, so there is someone
sassy like me doesn’t tweet them and say, “Hey what’s the deal?” So having more of us it
makes you feel like you belong more and you’re there because you deserve to be there and not
just there’s a woman face to put on their speaker’s list.
[0:29:31.8] EQ: Absolutely agree.
[0:29:33.1] BOK: As we are starting to run out of time there is so much there I could keep
talking about this. But Carole the other thing or the thought process I had is I wonder if there’s
anything that you would say to somebody who is where you were, say, three years ago? Who is
starting to get established in their career, in their tech career is aware of these things and is
looking at the role models and people help them and thinking, “Oh but I couldn’t be a role
model.” Or “How would I actually contribute to that?”
And what would you say to people in that situation?
[0:30:03.3] CRL: I think saying just do it is a really easy thing to say and again, there are a
million reasons why people aren’t in the position that they could just dive into things that they
are going to try to do. I think just be brave when you can is what I try to say to people. It is not
about - because it takes so much effort to do some things, to be the only woman standing up on
stage or to be the one that calls people out Twitter or in person, it is exhausting. It is so tiring
and you don’t have to do it every time.
That is a thing that I always say to people there are times where instead of making a comment, I
will just privately message a friend and be like, “Hey have you seen this?” Because you don’t
always have the energy to be the one calling out or to be the one that’s the face of diversity,
which you sometimes feel like you are. So I would say like do it but only on your own terms.
I think if you’d be yourself and show how enthusiastic you are and how talented you are
because I think people forget that we are not just putting women out there. There are people
from other groups out there to have them there. There are really talented developers that just
haven’t been heard for years because they’ve got all of these challenges that we’ve mentioned.
It is not that they’re not as good then we are just putting people out there to be seen.
They are talented and their voices need to be heard and their contributions are just as valuable
as everyone else and not just speaking about diversity, I think that is an important thing. The
first time I was asked to do a technical talk, I was like, “Wow, they actually want to hear me
talking about coding funnily enough because I am a developer and not just about my
experiences as a woman or anything else.” So I think that would be quite a bit of a tangent there
but yeah, that would be my advice.
[0:31:48.0] BOK: And so - then very finally. So you are talking about how much value you got
from those meetups, where do people go and find out the equivalent to meet ups local to them?
[0:31:58.4] CRL: meetup.com is awesome. I think most meet ups are there although some
aren’t because the meetup.com charges can get quite a lot if you don’t have a sponsor but that
is a rant for another time. Yeah, meetup.com, Twitter I think is probably how I’ve got to know
both of you before we met at a conference. And how certainly in the Umbraco community and in
the Scottish tech community, there is a big tech, the Twitter tech community.
Even if you don’t have a local one because you are from a small town or there’s just not a big
tech scene where you are, yeah Twitter is amazing and you’ll be - when there aren’t a lot of
people like you in the industry, Twitter can make you feel like there are which is lovely.
[0:32:38.4] BOK: Thank you so much Carole. I really appreciate that and more power to you.
Keep up the work.
[0:32:42.7] CRL: You too, it’s good to chat to you. Thanks for having me.
[0:32:46.5] BOK: Thank you and thanks Erica.
[0:32:47.7] EQ: Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
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